12-8-81

RADIO INTERVIEW WITH IMAM W.D. MUHAMMAD
KEST radio, Oakland, CA


I would like to greet our radio audience with the greetings of peace, of Al' Qur'an in the Arabic language, As Salaam Alaikum; peace be unto you. We are happy to welcome Imam Warithuddin Muhammad back with us this evening for our broadcast.  Our topic of discussion this evening will be on the " Potential Impact of Islamic Principles on the Public School System ". With me in the studio this evening is Sister Zarinah Bilal; my name is Abd' Allah Adesanya.  For our first question this evening:

Bro. Adesanya:
Imam Muhammad we would like to begin with you explaining to our radio audience, what is the purpose of the school?

Bro. Imam Muhammad:
I would like to greet the audience first with the greeting of peace, peace be unto you; to Muslims, As Salaam Alaikum The purpose of school is to provide the student, the young student, with the necessary information to enable that student to live in a community setting; family setting, community setting, group setting successfully.

Bro. Adesanya: 
Thank you.

Sis. Bilal:
Yes, Imam Muhammad; what can be the impact of Al' Islamic principles on the public school system?

Bro. Imam Muhammad:
I feel that the way in which we treat the needs in society to live a conscious and principle, principled life is somewhat unique today. In earlier life of this country the conscious of the public was a bit different, and the people were principled minded.  But our fast industrial life has taken a lot of that away and has confused these ideas. People are not as close to family sentiments and family concerns, human problems; as they were some years ago. But the Muslim community is a kind of conservative religious community, and like many other conservative religious communities, in America and throughout the world we have kept in contact, we've stayed in contact with the need to develop social consciousness on the basis of strong religious principles.  So I think the contribution would be the sharing of the common, the sharing of the common concerns for moral base in the life of the individual; and 1 think we do have something special to offer because of our, I would say, newness in the American society. Things that are new, movements that     are new they attract people.  And I believe that if the same principles were freshened up, made fresh for the public from a Christian perspective, we could achieve a lot.

Sis. Bilal-.
Thank you.

Sis. Bilal:
Also Imam Muhammad, we have observed that the separation of church and state in our school system has led to severe discipline problems among students and apathy among teachers. Would you please comment on that?

Bro. Imam Muhammad:
Yes, apathy, apathy is a moral problem; and we come right back to the moral question, you see. Apathy is a moral problem and the same trends in the city life, big city life, was responsible, that are responsible for the loss of good religious principles, good moral principles in the religious society are responsible; those same trends are responsible for the loss of human sentiments, genuine human concern. And I think many of our teachers in the public school system are not aware, they're educated but they are not aware of the, this overpowering influences of the big city life.  How much burden is on the individual to earn enough income to meet their weekly and monthly obligations, you know.  All of this is putting heavy pressure oh the individuals. 

We are perhaps still the most affluent nation in the world; in spite of this affluence, this abundance of material things, we still have to grind, you know, just to - the average person that is, has to grind to meet just daily and weekly and monthly obligations. I think this heavy strain on the individuals life is causing a lot of this over concern with self.  So the apathy that we see is because the individual is too heavily taxed.  I think if more human treatment, more human kindness was shown the teachers in the public school system by their superiors and from their superiors and from the general society.  I think that it would, that it would result in a more effective teacher in the classroom.  But if the teacher has to be heavily burdened and not understand really the nature of her or his own situation, we can't expect too much from them, in terms of them being an influence to correct the same kind of problem in their students.

Sis. Bilal:
You know the terms of separating church and state some, there are some ideas of having prayer in the classroom or starting off some schools are still using the Pledge of Allegiance, what do you see in reference to that as far as prayer in the public school?

Bro. Imam Muhammad:

Yes, I have been asked that question before, and I believe my answer is still the same.  I feel that there is a problem with including prayer in the public school system; if that prayer is going to be too excessive or too representative of a denomination or a particular religion. But if that prayer is a prayer that is in universal language and it doesn't cause us to identify it with any particular religion or any particular denomination then I think it would be good. But at the same time you have the problem of separation of state, which you. mentioned, if it's identifiable with religion there is going to be a problem.  So my belief is that the state should not interfere with the personal religious life of the individual, and they should be given a time if they want to have a quiet moment of meditation, a quiet moment of reflection. And not necessarily stand in a formal prayer, or sit in a formal sitting to have prayer; but each individual in his own way, in his own quiet way will have that moment to turn to his source, his spiritual source.

Sis. Bilal:
We need that, thank you.

Bro. Imam Muhammad:
Certainly we need it, oh yes.

Bro. Adesanya:
Imam Muhammad in looking at how the, sometimes in the public school system parents of the majority of students who may be discipline problems also appear to be apathetic. And kind of going back to one of your earlier answers, do you see this as a strain on the individuals' families which causes them to have forgotten their, I feel, responsibility to see that their children are properly educated?

Bro. Imam Muhammad:
You are correct, I agree; that's the way I see it too. And I believe most of us who are, who have been bothered, by the situation we see it as a problem and we do see it as a case of apathy on the part of the parent. Many parents I believe are free, are kind of free of this thing, but too many of them are not free of it.  I've talked to parents who feel the strain in the life of the child, the strain in the life of the teacher; and they feel that the teacher need their cooperation and I know many have told me how they have gone to the school and talked with the teacher and. have offered their help and have Just gone overboard in trying to cooperate with the teachers to help the problem in the children, you see.  

But too many of them just go the other way and cause, they increase the problems, they add to the problems because they don't know how to handle the problem at home, the discipline problem at home, they don't know how to handle it. The citizen in the big cities now, have suffered from the same kinds influences I mentioned earlier that overtax the teacher. Parents are not as prepared for these big city influences are teachers are, so they suffer more; so really the society, the system that is, need to real] come up with some programs that will involve parents. If it's by mass media, television , someway attention needs to be given to the needs of the parent.  

Parent, parenting needs of the parent, you see; if it's done by mass media or if it's done through the public school system, no matter how it's done it needs to be done. There are some good writers, occasionally I'll read an article in the newspaper, or an article in a magazine, occasional1y I'll see a good program on T.V. and they're addressing the need for assistance in the homes so that parents will be able to perform a better job of parenting.  But what is done is hardly of any affect at all. We need really massive effort to really bring about some change. A world like ours that have become so mechanical, we have we have to really think twice before we condemn any person in the society; the life is too heavily taxed, and social consciousness and moral consciousness have been neglected.

Bro. Adesanya:
I remember when I was in school part of my report card dealt with citizenship and how I handled myself in school and I wonder if even though we accept the fact that there is a separation in church and state, those good principles of respect for authority were taught in the school, the honesty was taught in the school, citizenship and concern for someone else, those human sentiment issues were taught in the schools.  Is it possible that those kinds of principles could be taught without it being a religious presentation?

Bro. Imam Muhammad:
I believe that's the answer. Cause after all you know, what is religion but a term.  I believe that these same concerns, these same sensitivities existed before we came, before man came up with that term or before God gave man that term, you see. So the problem comes when we try to impose our own orientation on another person, on another people, you see.  But as long as we are relating or expressing ourselves in common terms we have no problem and if our religious principles are worth anything they are principles that can be expressed in the common language of the universal man. 

So I believe that we should do that and I think we are seeing a lot of that now, especially from the religious, I would say the religious communities that are advocating inter-faith cooperation. They are learning through dialogue, through interfacing they are learning that there is a big area of common ground between their faiths and they are learning the language; they're developing a language between themselves, a common language between themselves. And I think as we go we'll see in the years to come that the problem will be treated Just as you're suggesting; you'll find that people from different religious ideas and persuasions will be attending the same problems and treating the problems in the same way using the sane language and it'll be hard to identify them. It will be almost, be impossible to identify their religion, their religion.  Because there is a common ground and there's common language and we should cake use of then, yes.

Bro. Adesanya:
Thank you, that seems so important in the commonality of our understanding:.  Imam Muhammad, a question from one of our listeners asks- " How can a concerned teacher teach a student successfully when the parents of that student do not show concern?"

Bro. Imam Warithuddin Muhammad
That's a very hard job; I don't think we should ever give up on the parent.  If the parent is not showing concern then that's a problem that we can't  overlook; we have to work on them, we never can give up. And we have to make the child aware that the parent, parent participation is needed; not by condemning the parent. Not in such language or in such terms that would cause the child to believe that we're condemning the parent; but in a kind of a language that would make the child see the importance of the parent, in his own development, you see.  We can't give up on the parent, we have to invite them over, and over, and over again to assist us.

Bro. Adesanya:
There's a, there's a principle in Al' Islam that speaks to the family being the basic unit of civilized society and the parent of course being the head of the family is clearly important; is it possible that sharing those kinds of concepts or principles in an academic setting would encourage the student or pupil to see their parent as being important? And as well the parent recognizing their importance in the system itself.

Bro. Imam Muhammad:
Oh certainly, in our religion the mother is very, very, very important in the education of the children. We believe that mother's the first teacher; and we believe that God has naturally, has with nature bless the mother with great sensitivity; with qualities for that particular need in early life that we don't have as men, we don't have - not in the abundance that the mother has it. We believe that she's a natural teacher; I think if we could reach mothers with this message, they would then come back to life and realize that they have been mistreating themselves by not giving themselves to their role.

Bro. Adesanya:
Thank you very much.

Sis. Bilal:
Thank you.  Yes, Imam Muhammad how should the Muslim parent whose child attends the public school, cope with the general school socializing process;  say for instance, dances, athletic teams, and particularly the female?

Bro. Imam Muhammad:
Yes, some of the principals of our schools they have brought the same question; and we have decided that our girls, the problem, the problem that most parents have is for girls, you know, with girls. They don't, the Muslim girl should be properly dressed around boys, a boy you see. And sometimes the exercise outfit does not, does not meet Muslim standards, you see.  So what we have done is explain our particular problem, our particular problem with regarding dress, girls - when girls are presented around boys to the school; to the local school. And I don't, I know of no case where the school hasn't accommodated the Muslim need; they've allowed the girl to dress differently, cover up more. 

Or they have found some way to accommodate, you know.  I won't state on the air here the ways in which we have been accommodated because it might, it might cause problems for others, for other schools that are not able to accommodate our, a member of our community; in the same way or with the same kind of treatment.  But they will find a way and will be just as satisfying, you know; there are many ways to accommodate the individual that would be just as satisfying.  I think the first thing, Muslims should not be over- sensitive; Muslims should realize that their own idea of what is proper is not necessarily what is proper for other people, and it's not necessarily a serious matter with other, people.  So we should be prepared for criticism, we should be prepared for light treatment of our concerns; we should be prepared for that, and we should go with the determination to win the heart of the person, first. And if we win their hearts over people are basically good everywhere, and once they see that you're really very, very serious about the thing; and that you're not a trouble maker, and you're not trying to over-burden anybody or overburden the program - then they will respond better.

Sis. Bilal:
Thank you.  Also that's in the same reference to dances and that type of thing?

Bro. Imam Muhammad:
Most certainly, dances, I think there's no problem.  I feel it would hurt us if we would keep our children from participating in these activities, if the majority of the students are participating in those activities.  But when a, where there's a minority participating in those activities then the Muslim parent should take a different position. The position then should be, what will we gain by participating; and if we think by participating we will be a good influence, cause sometimes a Muslim - one Intelligent Muslim; and I don't mean an intelligent non-Muslim can't do this too. One intelligent Muslin sometimes can participate in an un-Islamic activity an become a factor for improving the minds of those persons participating in that activity.

Sis. Bilal:
Say for instance, the dress or also maybe the type of dances that ..

Bro. Imam Muhanmad:
Yes the young girl should never be ashamed to go to a party and dress very modestly, very decently, very Muslim-like and become the life of the party.

Sis. Bilal:
Thank you.

Bro. Adesanya:
Imam Muhammad there has been for several decades now in the issue of school desegregation and busing, the issue of quality education.  This is a two-part question; first, how would you define quality education? And then secondly how do we achieve it?

Bro. Imam Muhammad:
Quality education, in our opinion, is an education that helps the child or, the student to perform successfully in society. An education that facilitates the way toward more growth, more development, and more responsibility. First, there is a need for us to live with each other. So there are human principles that oust be taught, social principles that must be taught. Then there is the need for uĞ to earn a living, so the basic knowledge or the ABCs of education; Reading, Writing, Arithmetic alone with Social Studies are a must. And when, when the concentration is in that area, Reading, Writing, Arithmetic Social Information - Social Studies; I think that we can say that that school or that system is designed to give quality education, to the student. 

When it goes much farther than that, it goes further than that; the environ has to be conducive to that kind of growth that we want in the individual - that kind of expanding of the consciousness and the expanding of the mind and the growth of the abilities in the child has to be fed also by a proper environment.  And that's where the neglect is I think more than anything else, It's in the proper environment. A child comes into a home where there is a parent missing; the father's not there, you see.  And that environment is not healthy, unless there is an extraordinary parent; and most of us are not extraordinary, we're just ordinary, you see.  

So that's a bad environment, and then the child comes to the school and he comes to an environment where everybody is just selfish and they're trying to make the day, and get through the hardship, you know, and looking at the clock.  How much, how much more time -how, how, when, when is this going to be over? If the teachers have that kind of attitude and the principals have that kind of attitude then it's going to be reflected in the environment of the school. You go to the school and the school will be looking disarrayed, the place is dull; there is no order, no one has taken the time to do little snail things to make the classroom attractive to the students, you see.  So I think quality education is not only in the curriculum, but more importantly it's! in the nature of the environment .

Bro. Adesanya:
Imam Muhammad, we are running short of time and the subject"1 here is so broad; are there any final - comments you'd like to make on the, what future you see for the public school system, especially those schools located in our cities?

Bro. Imam Muhammad:
There is a new development that is very good, because it's taking us back to the old, old way of treating education, the need for education in the child -education of the child.  That development that I'm referring to is "home schools"; and I think from these "home schools we going to get more people like Marva Collins, and more people like Clara Muhammad, you know. We're going to get more people like that and these people are going to be able to share their own experience with the public school system and the public school system then will be aided by the individuals, yes.

Bro. Adesanya:
Thank you Imam Muhammad.....

