11/16/2006
IWDM Study Library
Riba Interview
Racine WI

By Imam W. Deen Mohammed
As-salamu alaykum, Bismillah Her Rahman Nir Rahim. That is, peace be unto you, those in our listening audience and viewing audience. And we always begin, depending on G-d, trusting G-d with the results of our efforts. We trust G-d and we plan to have an excellent presentation, but we know we are human and we have shortcomings, we can make errors. So we ask G-d to protect us from those errors. We begin everything in the formal setting, and also in private settings of seriousness. We begin with bismillah, in the name of G-d or with G-d's name Bismillah, her Rahman nir Rahim, the merciful benefactor, the merciful redeemer.
IWDM:
For a quick look at the religion of Islam given in the Quran as Al-Islam. The deen, the religion. The religion or the deen, Al-Islam. The word itself comes from a word which suggests an indebtedness. And we know that we didn't create ourselves and we didn't create the universe, the world of natural things and we didn't create ourselves. And we are the creator of the things that are manmade. And so G-d is the one to whom is due appreciation from us. We need to acknowledge the gifts of G-d. And that's what we do when we say Bismillah her Rahman Nir Rahim with G-d's name, the Merciful Benefactor, the Merciful Redeemer.
IWDM:
We recognize him first for our existence and for the existence of the whole system of matter and material things, as well as living things and also the man and intelligence, our ability to create things. All of that, we give thanks to G-d for all of that. And our religion is a religion of good sense, common sense, a religion of human innocence, religion of human aspirations for the good things that G-d has created for us. Everything that we want as human beings is provided for us by G-d. There's nothing that we can want that G-d has not provided for. He has provided for all of our wants now presently and in the future. Whatever human beings will want in this creation or in this universe, G-d has already provided for those wants or for those aspirations.
IWDM:
Only if we have the right attitude and the right disposition towards ourselves and towards the external world, if we have the right disposition, then we get the good rewards. If we have the wrong disposition, we get the bad consequences. In this religion, we don't blame G-d for any bad that happens to us. We cannot blame G-d for our sins. We cannot blame G-d for our shortcomings or anything that bothers us, why? Because G-d intend only good, that's in the scripture. G-d intends for his creation only good. And especially, for his special creation, that's the creation of the servants of G-d, Muhammad the Prophet being the last of them.
IWDM:
He intends nothing but good for us. And we want to conform to the best mode of behavior, the best model of behavior, we don't want to conform to that. For the Christians, they have Christ Jesus and for Muslims, we have Muhammad's model, Muhammad's Uswah or his model. And we have to conform to the best of that because G-d shows us through Muhammad, what he wants for all of us in terms of behavior on this planet earth and human excellence.
IWDM:
And also, we should know that Islam is a religion that is to be carried into practice and our practices are given as five. One is to witness that there is but one G-d and Muhammad is the messenger of G-d, the last of the prophets. And to make prayer and to also give in charity, that's the third. And to fast the month of Ramadan, a whole month during the daylight hours from dawn until sunset, and that is the fourth of these. And the last of these, the fifth one, is to make pilgrimage. If we can afford it, make pilgrimage once in our lifetime, if we have the financial means and the health.
IWDM:
Even if the health is poor, many people know their health is poor and failing them, but they don't want to die before making pilgrimage. So they will have the persons go with them, assist them, carry them if they must, so that they will be able to make their pilgrimage to the house built by Abraham, Ibrahim in the Quran, and his son Ishmael, Ismail in our Quran, our holy book. Yes, that house that symbolizes the unity of human beings is symbolized as our oneness. We are one human family and we are descendants from one ancestor and his mate that is Adam, as it is for Christians and Jews and his mate.
IWDM:
So these are the five principles or the five pillars of Al-Islam. Five principles or five pillars of Al-Islam. And we know we have articles of faith also. We are to believe in G-d and to believe in his angels, and to believe in the prophets, and to believe in the books that they brought, the revealed books of the prophets. We are to believe in the regulation of punishment, reward and punishment Kairihi wa sharrihi minallahi taala.The regulation of what we get as good and what we get as bad, that regulation is from G-d himself. It's a law from G-d himself, a law in the creation itself that rewards and punishes us according to our disposition and attitudes, our intent.
IWDM:
So this is our religion. And you will notice that the beliefs for the people of the book and the Muslims, Jews, Christians and Muslims, very similar. And not only that, you will find other people, other religions or other groups with whom we have a relationship, a resemblance in terms of what we believe. But our practices stand out, when you see a Muslim performing his prayers with a congregation or by himself, you see something that says, "That's a Muslim." And so it is for our whole life. Our whole life is regulated by the word of G-d and the teachings and example of our prophet.
IWDM:
And when you see a Muslim live his life at home with his family, how he eats, how he conducts himself with his wife and with his children, how the family members relate to one another and greet one another, everything, you will see a Muslim life. And similarly, if you could be with the Jews especially on Sabbath day, Saturday, most of the time, I believe it's Saturday all the time, starting at the night and going into the day at Saturday, you will see the Jewish life of the Jewish people. And if you were to see the Christian that's devoted to their religion at home, especially on Sunday and at meal time and morning time, at nighttime when they pray or go over retiring, you will see how they relate to one another, and you will see how they live their life, and you will see a picture of a Christian.
IWDM:
So we are similar and very similar in our beliefs, but how we practice our religion gives us our distinctions. So much for the religion of Al-Islam, now I'm inviting participation. You perhaps won't see the figure that's here with me, but you will hear the voice. I'm inviting participation for this presentation. We are preparing this, right now, we're recording for W. Deen Mohammed and guest.
Speaker 2:
Thank you very much, Imam. As-salamu alaykum.
IWDM:
Thank you.
Speaker 2:
This question is on Riba and in practice in business, will you explain the Riba or interest to us in business?
IWDM:
Yes, yes. Riba in the Quran, in our holy book is exorbitant interest or overcharging a person for money that they borrowed. Multiplying it, that's the word. The term in the Quran is multiplying the interest, increasing it by multiplying it. In our society, we have the term... I mean, in this day and time, and in this part of the world, we have the term usury and the government is always watching to see if there is somebody abusing their business rights, rights to conduct business and enjoy profit or income from it. They're watching them to make sure that they are not overcharging people for money borrowed.
IWDM:
I believe The Wall Street Journal recently published that within the last week, I believe it was, that the rate is 8.5 for money you borrow, that's $8 dollars and 50 cents for every $100 dollars. Now we know that in some instances, the interest that you might pay for a loan on your home, or car, or automobile, it can go up into the tens, and into the twenties, into the thirties, and it can become very, very bad. This is the kind of interest that I would say would be condemned by our holy book. Making that much money on money that you lend to someone, even though it's extended, or a period of 25, 30 years, still that's too much to charge a person.
IWDM:
However, I think many of us tend to read in the Quran, the English translation, that Riba is interest, and we don't go any farther, we just stop right there, that Riba is interest. But we should understand that G-d is the G-d of justice and G-d wants justice. Is it right for me to give you or loan you $1000 today, and five years later, you're giving me my $1000 and say, "I can't give you more because you can't charge interest. It's Riba, it's forbidden. It's Riba, it's dirty money." But the cost of living has changed. So that money won't go as far, 10 years later or five years later as it would go when I gave it to you. So in actuality, I gave you more money than you're willing to give me back. Is that justice?
Speaker 2:
No, sir.
IWDM:
No, it's not justice. So the point of these comments on this Riba or interest is that, we have to consider all factors that are bearing on the subject, we have to deal with reality and we have to be just. And to be just, we have to take more into concern than just that this is interest, this is increase on what we have got. We have to take it and say, "Is it justified? Or am I getting more from this lender than I'm entitled to?" And the lender facilitates the need for you. You need some money, you don't have it, someone else has it. And then you need to conform with the law because if you don't, you might be taken to court later, you and the lender.
IWDM:
So the bank is set up to respect the law of the land regarding money, finances, lending and borrowing. And so you need that facility and that facility has an overhead. It has capital assets, fixed assets, it has expenses and there's someone employed to serve you in a big facility, that costs a lot. So the justice is that you take all that into consideration. "Oh, he shouldn't make any money off of me," but he's serving you. Let me just leave it right there. What's the next one?
Speaker 2:
Thank you very much, brother Imam. The next one is, is Riba restricted to just business?
IWDM:
No, no. It's not. Well, in a sense, it is because when you're talking about charges for service off of things or property, or items, or whatever, when you're talking about charging somebody something, or I come to you, I'm just an individual, I don't have any business, but my son is sick and he's a young child and I need the need a loan to pay for his medicine, his medicine is too much for me to pay for. I can't handle it and I don't have insurance to take care of... It won't cover all the medicine. So I need some money for my son right now and I'm not in business. And I come to you and I say, "You're my brother in religion, I need some money. Can you give me a loan of $500 so I can get my son the special medicine that he needs today or tomorrow. By tomorrow, I have to have it."
IWDM:
And you say, "Well yes, I think I can get the $500 for you but I can't give it to you because I'm living on a budget and my family and my children are all depending on my income and I have to have that money back. Can you get the money back to me within a month?" And I say, "Well yes, give me two months. I think I can get it back in two months." And I say, "How much is that going to charge me?" And you say, "Oh, $600 for two months." And I say, "Oh no, I can't pay more than $500." Now that's personal matter with their business, right? And it should be treated as business.
Speaker 2:
Once you said brother Imam, that business is Da'wah, one time. Business is Da'wah. Would you please elaborate on that a little?
IWDM:
Yeah. Well, if I tell you I have many things in mind, but the thing that first came to my mind firstly, was how Indonesia became Muslim. It's a country now of millions of Muslims and no one went there to convert them to Islam. Early history of Indonesian Muslims tells us that the Muslim businessmen went to Indonesia to do business, and they liked Indonesia and decided to live there and they made Indonesia their home. They were not preachers, they were not doing Da'wah, like we associate Da'wah with preachers or with Imams, religious leaders who take care of the services for the Muslim on Fridays, on the sacred day or Friday, the day of congregation or Jumu'ah.
IWDM:
Yeah, they were not such persons, they were business people. They went there to make business, to do business. And they were such good neighbors to their neighbors and had such excellent business ethics, or business morals and behavior that the people were attracted to them. And they became so much attracted to them that they thought inquiring, "What's your religion? Your religion is not like ours, what's your religion?"
IWDM:
And the interest went from business to religion. It was not first religion then business. It was business and then the interest went to religion. They inquired about the religion of those persons who were living among them doing such excellent business and respecting and caring about their non-Muslim neighbors, protecting their interest when they were away from home. "You live next door to me, while you're gone, I'm obligated..." Islam obligates a Muslim to protect the interests of his neighbor while his neighbor is gone, whether he's a Muslim, Christian, Jew, or whatever. So they were converted to the excellent behavior and heart of their new neighbors, Muslim, excellent behavior in business dealings and their very good heart as neighbors. And the whole country eventually became Muslim. It's almost a hundred percent Muslim, Indonesia.
Speaker 2:
So we do think that their honesty and their fair dealings with the business versus dealing with them attracted them.
IWDM:
Yeah, it was better. It was more than just fair dealings.
Speaker 2:
Yes, sir.
IWDM:
It was fair dealing, but with also human goodness, the goodness of the human heart that impressed them. Yeah, they followed the Prophet's way of caring about their neighbor. And the Prophet is reported to have said that G-d pressed on him so much about his neighbor until he said, "Until I started thinking that the neighbor may inherit me."
IWDM:
And what does that mean? The neighbor may inherit me, that the neighbor may keep his tradition and his good works in history and in the life of mankind and not forget it, but cherish it and preserve it for others to read. Yeah, may inherit me. And it also can be carried a bit further, the neighbor that was non-Muslim may be converted to Islam and be the one to carry on the tradition of the Prophet.
IWDM:
So the behavior of those people were so excellent. But if you look at business period, here's a man, he opens up a business in our neighborhood and he's employing persons from our neighborhoods. He's enabling them to have a better living standard. G-d appreciates every goodness. So his service then is service that G-d appreciates and his services also, are kindness, or mercy, or compassion on the people. So G-d rewards him for that and it's as though he did a religious deed. Yes, a religious deed.
IWDM:
We should never forget what the Prophet said when some men brought him a certain man that performed all the rituals he fast and he prayed, so when they told the Prophet of that man's merits, the Prophet said, "Who takes care of him?" And they said, "We do." "So you are better than he is." So you can pray 5, or 10, or 20 prayers a day, and you can fast all the days of Ramadan, but if you are not taking care of yourself, then the person who is taking care of you...
IWDM:
That makes me think now, so those who are satisfied on welfare, the welfare department is better than them. By what the Prophet said, the welfare department is better than they are because they're just lazy and not working, not contributing anything to society, just praying and fasting and holding their hand out and saying, "Pay my bills, pay my wives' bill, pay my children's bill, from four wives. Pay their bills too." Do you know we've got some people like that?
Speaker 2:
Yes, sir.
IWDM:
It's a shame. Another thing the Prophet said, nobody enjoys a meal as much as the person, a son of Adam who says that you descended from an industrial person. A person that was given the creation to make use of it and he developed the earth. He was the first one that started developing the earth to reap benefits from it, for himself, his wife, his children, his attendants. So if you don't have that industry in you, if you don't have that spirit to want to work and earn your own income or earn your livelihood, then you are missing something that G-d put in you for your happiness. So no one enjoys a meal as much as the son of Adam who earned it with his labor.
IWDM:
Yeah. I'm a witness. And I've had it put into me by older persons that were before me. They say, "Son, never be satisfied to have somebody to take care of you. Work to take care of yourself so you will feel like a man." Like a happy man. Yeah. Also, I was visiting the Mormons in Salt Lake City, Utah, where they are concentrated, that's their land. And they were letting me see their charity that they were doing. Oh, they had, I mean, acres of land that they had put retail stores and some factories collecting used products and cleaning them up and having cleaning operation, laundry operation to clean them and selling them in the retail store. And it looked so attractive to me, it looked like a store that was selling a brand new product, just newly made.
IWDM:
That's how attractive and how well they were selecting garments to have them cleaned and pressed and sold. But they were also making food items, and many food that they grew and meats that they raised on the land, cows and chickens and other things. They had a big industry. What I'm getting to is their symbol, the symbol that they had for their businesses and industry was a bee. And I asked them about that and they were pleased, I could see it in their faces, they were so pleased that I was curious to know that something about their symbol, the bee.
IWDM:
So they told me, "Yes, this is our symbol." And they just told me how proud and how happy they were to have that symbol. And I went home and reflected on it. There's a whole surah or chapter in our Quran, in our book called the Bee (Al Nahl).. So anyway, I started thinking about it. I said, "What is the message in that bee to man?" The message is, not that bees makes honey and honey is sweet, but that bee is devoted to working and the end result for his life is sweet. The end product, the end result for his life is sweet. So if we become a people devoted to creating and building, Oh, we would be such a blessed people. Our life would be so sweet, we wouldn't be ugly natured, we wouldn't be hating people...
IWDM:
Bismillah Her Rahman, Nir Rahim That is, "Peace be unto you," for those in our listening audience, and viewing audience.
IWDM:
And we always begin depending on G-d, and trusting G-d with the results of our efforts. We trust G-d. We plan to have an excellent presentation, but we know we are humans, and we have shortcomings. We can make errors. So we ask G-d to protect us from those errors. We begin everything in the formal setting, and also in private settings of seriousness we begin with Bismillah and the name of G-d, with G-d's name, Ar Rahman Nir Rahim, the Merciful Benefactor, the Merciful Redeemer.
IWDM:
For a quick look at the religion of Islam, given in the Quran as Al Islam, the din, the religion, or the Din. Al Islam. The word itself comes from a word which suggests an indebtedness, and we know that we didn't create ourselves, and we didn't create the world, the universe. The world of natural things, and we didn't create ourselves. And we're the creator of things that are man made.
IWDM:
So G-d is the one to whom is due appreciation from us, and we need to acknowledge the gifts of G-d. And that's what we do when we say Bismillah Her Rahman Nir Rahim, with G-d's name, the Merciful Benefactor, the Merciful Redeemer. We recognize Him first, for our existence, and for the existence of the whole creation, the whole system of matter, or material things, as well as living things and also the man, and intelligence or ability to create things. All of that, we give thanks to G-d for all of that.
IWDM:
And our religion is a religion of good sense, common sense. The religion of human innocence. The religion of human aspirations for the good things that G-d has created for us. Everything that we want as human beings is provided for us by G-d. There's nothing that we can want that G-d has not provided for. He has provided for all of our wants, now, presently, and in the future. Whatever human beings will want in this creation, or in this universe, G-d has already provided for those wants, for those aspirations.
IWDM:
Only if we have the right attitude and the right disposition towards ourselves and towards the external world. If we have the right disposition, then we get the good rewards. If we have the wrong disposition, we get the bad consequences.
IWDM:
In this religion, we don't blame G-d for any bad that happens to us, we cannot blame G-d for our sins, we cannot blame G-d for our shortcomings, or anything that bothers us. Why? Because G-d intends only good, that's in the scripture. G-d intends for His creations only good, and especially for His special creations, that's the creation of the servants of G-d, Muhammad the Prophet being the last of them. He intends nothing but good for us. And we want to conform to the best molds, the best behavior, the best mold of behavior. The best model of behavior. We ought to conform to that. For the Christians, they have Christ Jesus, and for Muslims we have Muhammad's model, Muhammad's Uswah or his model. And we are to conform to the best of that, because G-d shows us through Muhammad what he wants for all of us, in terms of behavior on this planet earth, and human excellence.
IWDM:
Also we should know that Islam is a religion that is to be carried into practice, and our practices are given as five. One is to witness that there is but one G-d, and Muhammad is the messenger of G-d, the last of the prophets. And to pray, to make prayer. And to also give in charity, that's the third. And to fast the month of Ramadan, a whole month, during the daylight hours, from dawn till sunset. And that is the fourth of these.
IWDM:
And the last of these, the fifth one, is to make pilgrimage, if we can afford it. Make pilgrimage once in our lifetime, if we have the financial means, and the health. Even if the health is poor, many people know their health is poor and failing them, but they don't want to die before making pilgrimage. So they will have persons go with them and assist them, carry them if they must, so that they will be able to make their pilgrimage to the house built by Abraham, Ibrahim, in the Quran, and his son Ishmael, Ismail in the Quran, our holy book. That house that symbolizes the unity of human beings. It symbolizes our oneness. We are one human family, and we are descendants from one ancestor, and his mate. That is Adam, as it is for Christians and Jews, and his mate.
IWDM:
So these are the principles, or the five pillars of Al Islam. And we know we have articles of faith also. We are to believe in G-d and to believe in His angels, and to believe in the prophets, and to believe in books that they brought, the revealed books of the prophets. We are to believe in the regulations of reward and punishment, Ar Kairihi Wa Sharihi Minallahi taala. The regulations of what we get of good, and what we get of bad. That regulation is from G-d Himself. It's the law, from G-d Himself. A law in creation itself, that rewards and punishes us, according to our disposition and attitudes, or intent.
IWDM:
So this is our religion, and you will notice that the beliefs for the people of the book, and the Muslims. Jews, Christians, and Muslims, very similar. And not only that, you will find other religions, or other groups, with whom we have a relationship, a resemblance, in terms of what we believe. But our practices stand out. When you see a Muslim performing his prayers, in a congregation or by himself, you see something that says, "That's a Muslim."
IWDM:
And so it is for our whole life. Our whole life is regulated by the Word of G-d, and the teachings and examples of our Prophet. And when we see a Muslim live his life, at home with his family. How he eats, how he conducts himself, with his wife and with his children, how the family members relate to one another, and greet one another, and everything, you'll see a Muslim life.
IWDM:
And similarly, if you could be with the Jews, especially on Sabbath day, I believe it's Saturday, starting at the night and going into the day of Saturday, you will see the life of the Jewish people.
IWDM:
And if you would see the Christians that are devoted to their religion, at home, especially on Sunday, and at meal time, and morning time, and night time, when they pray, or go retiring. You will see how they relate to one another, and you will see how they live their life, and you will see a picture of a Christian. So we are very similar in our beliefs, but we practice our religion gives us our distinctions.
IWDM:
So much for the religion of Al Islam. Now I'm inviting participation. You perhaps won't see the figure that's here with me, but you will hear the voice. I'm inviting participation for this presentation. We are preparing this, right now, we are recording for W. Deen Mohammed, and guests.
S1:
Thank you very much Brother Imam. As-salamu alaykum.
IWDM:
Thank you. Thank you Imam.
S1:
This question is on riba, and in practice and business. Will you explain riba, or interest, to us?
IWDM:
Yes. Riba, in the Quran, in our holy book, is exorbitant interest, or overcharging a person for money that they borrow. Multiplying it, that's the term in the Quran, is multiplying the interest. Increasing it by multiplying it. In our society, we have the term, in this day and time, and in this part of the world, we have the term usury. The government's always watching to see if somebody abusing their business rights, rights to conduct business, and enjoy profit, or income from it. They are watching them to make sure that they are not overcharging people for money borrowed. I believe the Wall Street Journal recently published, just within the last week, I believe it was, that the rate is 8.5 for money you borrow. 8.5. That's $8.50 for every $100, you see?
IWDM:
Now we know that in some instances, the interest that you might pay for a loan, on your home, or car, or automobile, it can go up into the teens, and into the 20s, into the 30s, and it can become very, very bad. This is the kind of interest that I would say would be condemned by our holy book. Making that much money on money that you lend to someone, even thought it's extended over a period of 25, 30 years. Still, that's too much to charge a person.
IWDM:
However, I think many of us, to read in the Quran, the English translation, that riba is interest, and we don't go any farther. We just start right there, that riba is interest. But we should understand that G-d is the G-d of justice, and G-d wants justice. Is it right for me to loan you $1000 today, and five years later you give me my $1000 and say, "I can't give you more, because you can't charge interest. It's riba, it's forbidden. It's riba, dirty money."
IWDM:
But the cost of living has changed, so that money won't go as far 10 years later, five years later, as it would go when I gave it to you. So in actuality, I gave you more money than you are willing to give me back. Is that justice?
S1:
No, sir.
IWDM:
No, it's not justice. So the point of these comments on riba, or interest, is that we have to consider all factors that are bearing on the subject. All factors factors that are bearing on this subject. We have to deal with reality, and we have to be just. And to be just, we have to take more into concern than just that this is interest, this is increased on. We have to take into concern, "Is this is justified, or am I getting more from this lender than I am entitled to?"
IWDM:
And the lender facilitates the need for you. You need some money, you don't have it. Someone else has it. And then you need to conform with the law, because if you don't, you might be taken to court later. You and the lender. So the bank is setup to respect the law of the land, regarding money, finances. Lending and borrowing. So you need that facility, and that facility has an overhead. It has capital assets, fixed assets. It has capital assets. It has its expenses. And there's someone employed to serve you, in a big facility that costs a lot. So the justice is that you take all of that into consideration. "Oh, he shouldn't make any money off of me?"
IWDM:
But he's serving you? Let's leave it right there. What's the next one?
S1:
Thank you very much.
S1:
The next one is riba, is it restricted to just business?
IWDM:
No. It's not.
IWDM:
Well, in a sense it is, because when you're talking about charges for service, or for things, property, items, or whatever. When you're talking about charging somebody something.
IWDM:
Or, I come to you, I'm just an individual. I don't have any business, but my son is sick. And he's a young child and I need a loan to pay for his medicine. His medicine is too much for me to pay for, I can't handle it. And I don't have insurance to take care of it, it won't cover all the medicine, so I need some money for my son right now. And I'm not in business, and I come to you, and I say, "You're my brother in religion. I need some money, can you give me a loan of $500 so I can get my son this special medicine that he needs today or tomorrow. By tomorrow, I have to have it."
IWDM:
And you say, "Well yes, I think I can get the $500 for you, but I can't give it to you, because I'm living on a budget, and my family and my children are all depending on my income, and I have to have the money back. Can you get the money back to me within a month?"
IWDM:
And I say, "Well, yes. Give me two months, I think I can get it back in two months. How much is that going to charge me?"
IWDM:
And you say, "Oh, $600, for two months."
IWDM:
And I say, "Oh no. I can't pay more than $500."
IWDM:
Now that's a personal matter, but that's business.
S1:
[inaudible 00:18:09]
IWDM:
Right? And it should be treated as business.
S1:
Once you said, Brother Imam, that business is dawah, one time.
IWDM:
Yes.
S1:
Business is dawah. Could you please elaborate on that a little?
IWDM:
Yes. Well, I'll tell you, I have many things in mind. But the thing that first came to my mind, firstly, was how Muslims of Indonesia became Muslims. It's a country now, millions of Muslims, and no one went there to convert them to Islam. Muslims, early history of these Indonesian Muslims tells us that the Muslim businessmen went to Indonesia to do business. And they liked Indonesia and decided to live there, and they made Indonesia their home. They were not preachers, they were not doing dawah.
IWDM:
We associate dawah with preachers, with imams, religious leaders, who take care of the services for the Muslims on Fridays, on the sacred day of Friday, the day of congregation, of Jumu'ah. They were not such persons. They were business people. They went there to make business, to do business. And they were such good neighbors to their neighbors, and had such excellent business ethics, or business morals, and behavior that the people were attracted to them. And they became so much attracted to them that they start inquiring, "What's your religion? Your religion is not like ours, so what's your religion?"
IWDM:
And the interests went from business to religion. It was not first religion then business. It was business and then the interest went to religion. They inquired about the religion of those persons who were living among them, doing such excellent business, and respecting and caring about their non-Muslim neighbors. Caring about protecting their interests when they were away from home. "You live next door to me, while you're gone, I'm obligated..."
IWDM:
Islam obligates a Muslim to protect the interest of his neighbor while his neighbor's gone. Whether he's a Muslim, Christian, Jew, or whatever. So they were converted to the excellent behavior and hearts of their new neighbors, Muslims. Excellent behavior in business dealings, and their good heart as neighbors. Very good hearted as neighbors. And the whole country eventually became Muslim. It's almost 100% Muslim, Indonesia.
S1:
So you think their fair dealing, their honesty, and their fair dealings with the business persons-
IWDM:
Yes.
S1:
The dealing with them attracted them.
IWDM:
Yes. It was more than just fair dealings.
S1:
Yes, sir.
IWDM:
It was fair dealings, but it was also human goodness. The goodness of the human heart that impressed them. They followed the Prophet's way of caring about their neighbor. And you know the Prophet is reported to have said that G-d pressed on him so much about his neighbor, until he said, "I start to thinking that the neighbor may inherit me." And what does that mean, "the neighbor may inherit me"?
IWDM:
That the neighbor may keep his tradition, and his good works, in history, and in the life of mankind, and not forget it, but cherish it, and preserve it for others to read. May inherit me. And it also can be carried a bit further. The neighbor, that was non-Muslim may be converted to Islam, and be the one to carry on the tradition of the Prophet. So the behavior of those people was so excellent.
IWDM:
But if you look at business, period. Here's a man, he opens up a business in our neighborhood. And he's employing persons from our neighborhood. He's enabling them to have a better living standard. G-d appreciates every goodness, so his service then, is service that G-d appreciates. And his service is also a kindness, a mercy, a compassion on the people. So G-d rewards him for that, and it's as though he did a religious deed. Yes, a religious deed. We should never forget what the Prophet said when some men brought him a certain man that performed all the rituals. He fasts, he prays. So when the told the Prophet of that man's merits, the Prophet said, "Who takes care of him?"
IWDM:
And they said, "We do."
IWDM:
"So you are better than he is?"
IWDM:
So you can pray five or 10, or 20 prayers a day. And you can fast all the days of Ramadan, but if you are not taking care of yourself, then the person who is taking care of you... Oh, that makes me think now. So those who are satisfied on welfare, the welfare department is better than them. By what the Prophet says, the welfare department is better than they are. For they are just lazy, not working, not contributing anything to society. Just praying and fasting and holding their hand out, and saying, "Pay my bills. Pay my light bill. Pay my wive's bill. Pay my children's bill. From four wives. Pay their bills too."
IWDM:
You know we got some people like that?
S1:
Yes, sir.
IWDM:
It's a shame.
IWDM:
Another thing the Prophet said, nobody enjoys a meal as much as the person, a son of Adam, who says that you're descended from, an industrial person, a person that was given the creation to make use of it, and he developed the earth. He was the first one to start developing the earth, to reap benefits from it for himself. His wife, his children, his descendants. So if you don't have that industry in you. If you don't have that spirit to want to work and earn your own income, or earn your livelihood, then you're missing something that G-d put in you for your happiness. So no one enjoys a meal as much as the son of Adam who earned it with his labor. Yes.
IWDM:
I'm a witness, and I've had it put into me by older persons before me. They say, "Son, never be satisfied to have somebody take care of you. Work. Take care yourself. You'll feel like a man. Like a happy man."
IWDM:
I am. Like a happy man. Yes.
IWDM:
Also, I was visiting the Mormons in Utah. Salt Lake City, Utah, where they're concentrated, that's their land. And they were letting me see their charity that they were doing. They had, I mean, acres of land that they had put stores on, retail stores, and some factories. Collecting used products and cleaning them up, having cleaning operations, laundry operations, cleaning them. And selling them in a retail store, and it looked so attractive. To me, it looked like a store that was selling brand new products, just newly made. That's how attractive and well they were selecting garments to have them cleaned and pressed and sold. But they were also making many food items that they grew, and meats that they raised on the land, cows and chickens and other things. They had a big industry. What I'm getting to is their symbol, the symbol that they had for their business and industry was a bee.
IWDM:
And I asked them about that, and they were pleased, I could see it in their faces, they were so pleased that I was curious to know something about their symbol, the bee. So they told me, "Yes, this is our symbol."
IWDM:
And they showed me how happy they were to have that symbol. And I went home and I reflected on it. You know, there's a whole sura, chapter in our Quran, our holy book called [Arabic 00:28:57], the Bee. So anyway, I started thinking about it. I thought, "What is the message in that bee, to man?"
IWDM:
The message is not that bee makes honey and honey is sweet. But that bee is devoted to working. And his life, the end result for his life is sweet. The end product. The end result for his life is sweet. So if we become a people devoted to creating and building, oh we would be such a blessed people. Our life would be so sweet. We wouldn't be ugly natured. We wouldn't be hating people, or looking for someone to put my burden on. To excuse myself from my own neglect or shortcomings.
IWDM:
We wouldn't be like that. We'd be so happy, and pleased over our results, results of our efforts, of our labor, of our work, that we would just be smiling and loving one another. You never saw a bee attacking a bee. They work together so peacefully and so lovingly. And they have such a high level intelligence, if you don't mean them any harm, they ain't going to bother you. I know because I've lived around them, I've stuck my hand in where they were nesting, and did it accidentally. Pulled my hand away in fear, and they came at me too, they thought it was on purpose. But I stayed calm, and I guess I was saying, "I'm sorry."
IWDM:
That swarm of bees that came towards me went right back away from me. Not a bee touched me. They have such high intelligence.
IWDM:
So I think we are missing a lot when it comes to knowing the value of human life, and knowing what human life is on earth for. The purpose for human life on this earth. The purpose of human life on this earth is to make more use of it than any other creature created, than any other living thing. We are supposed to make more use of the earth, and the creation, the material things that we have available for ourselves, from earth. We are to make more use of that than any other living thing. That's why we're here. And your brains will judge you in the hereafter, in the judgment. When the final day comes, for you to account before your creator, the brain will say, "Well, I had the capacity just like the other brains that other people have, but he never used me."
S1:
Brother Imam, we understand that we are to apply the religion in our ever day way of life. However, do we relate to religion in reference to business? How would we relate to religion in reference to business?
IWDM:
Yes. If we look at the advance nations, the most advanced of all the nations that we know, in terms of material achievements, material accomplishments, is the United States of America. And this country was founded by believers in faith, believers in religion. And it has been supported by believers in religion. People who came here to find a place that would permit them to live their religion and practice their religion without being persecuted or mistreated. We're talking about the Mayflower, the landing on Plymouth Rock. The first Christians to come to this land to establish their life.
IWDM:
Since that time, every president of the United States, the government formed, the nation of the United States formed. Every president of the United States has had to get the support from Christians, mainly from Christians, to be elected, and to serve as president. And this nation prospered so much until it advanced beyond the old country, and the old governments, Great Britain, the governments of Europe. It advanced beyond them, and still advances far ahead of them. Far more than those nations, those countries back there. And these people came, the purpose was to have their religion, and to have a place where they can live their religious life without being persecuted or mistreated because of their faith in G-d. And G-d rewarded this country so much.
IWDM:
Now we come to Muslims. Let's leave that scene, and going to look at myself now. We are Muslims, and what accounts for the improvements in the life of the Arabs who were backwards, they say themselves that the time before the Revelation, before G-d gave religion to them through Muhammad the Prophet, peace be on him, our prophet, that they were a backwards people and they called that time that they were living in the time of ignorance, Jahiliyyah, the time of ignorance. So what accounts for them coming into the bright life, and having a better future, and getting their name in the history, et cetera? Their religion. It was their religion.
IWDM:
And every other people, who embraced that religion, the Prophet didn't, in his own lifetime, he didn't leave it there in that small peninsula called Arabia. He saw that it went to Persia. He saw that it went to what's called Iran now. He saw that it went to Africa, and to Ethiopia and other places. And he saw that it reached the whites and the Blacks. And, as a result, their lives were improved. And their nations became great and productive. And their nations got a place in history, as a result of that new revival, or that new awakening for G-d's faith. For the pleasure of G-d, yes.
IWDM:
So you asked me about the relationship. If we want to be as big as we can be in business, then let's be as big as we can be for G-d. And then you'll be the biggest in business. It's faith in G-d, in pleasing G-d that has opened up the world to mankind, and accounted for his great material progress, not only spiritual.
S1:
Thank you Reverend.
IWDM:
Thank you.
IWDM:
Well, I don't know how the time goes here.
S1:
You've got about 10 minutes.
IWDM:
Okay, well, do you have another question then?
S1:
I have a question.
IWDM:
Oh yes.
S1:
Brother [inaudible 00:37:46], do you see a relationship between interests that we have in business, I think I already know this answer, and the interests that we would call human concerns? Interests in business and interests that we have-
IWDM:
Yes, I understand.
IWDM:
Yes. These two are just by practice. Habit and practice. And also, in part, by learning. We keep these two separated, completely separated. With a man going into business, "Okay, look out brother, you've been a good believer, but now you're going after that money."
IWDM:
So they're seen as threatening one another. That it the profit becomes too good in religion, it will threaten my business progress, my reputation as a businessman. I might lose something from business. And the other way around, if I put too much interest into business, and I'm already established as a religious man, a nice and good religious man, that it might threaten that establishment for me. I might lose something from that establishment.
IWDM:
Not necessarily so. But we should remember that the better life is the life that G-d promises us, not the life that we plan for ourselves, but the better life is the life that G-d promises us. And He promises us that if we hold to religion, hold to our faith, and respect what G-d has established for our lives, that in the end, we are going to be given full reward for that. We are going to get pleasure, happiness and life eternal. That's what G-d promises us.
IWDM:
But he also wants us to know that the material benefits, the material rewards, are also for believers in G-d. G-d says in our holy book, "Who has said to my devotees," those who devote their lives to worship of G-d, "Who has said to my devotees that the material things of this world is not for them?"
IWDM:
He says, "Oh, yes. On the contrary, these are for them, and exclusively for them, in the hereafter."
IWDM:
So all the criminals and bad guys going to be cut out of these blessings in the hereafter. And the blessings, of the material rewards, are going to be only for the devoted servants of G-d. That's what G-d says.
IWDM:
So yes, there is a difference. We have to recognize that. But as long as a believer puts G-d first, and puts his faith in G-d first, and his obligation to G-d first, he should not hesitate to engage visitors, making money, and he should not put any limits on how much money he should make. That's a fool. You never put any limits on how much money you can make. No, that would be ignorant, very ignorant.
IWDM:
Yes, but that's it, there's another one? If there's another question I can take it.
S1:
Brother Imam, I just want to go back to the bee. I know you was explaining how the bee works, he works constantly, and the end result is sweet.
IWDM:
Yes.
S1:
Now, how can that be applied, or can that be applied to the ant? Being that the ant is constant worker too. Is there not relevance there, too?
IWDM:
Yes, but they don't give us sweets.
S1:
They don't give us nothing.
IWDM:
They don't give us sweets. And do you know the difference? The ant, his environment is not beautiful. He lives in trenches and holes, and subways under the earth. Dark, no light under there. But that bee goes for a beautiful product.
S1:
Yes, sir.
IWDM:
It goes for a beautiful thing that G-d has created. It sees a flower, and it gets attracted to it. It's attracted to something beautiful. And it makes the life so sweet and productive.
IWDM:
So do you find among human beings those who are attracted to dark areas, or get down in the dark holes and carry on. And what they're dealing with ain't giving off no nice aromas or anything. So they don't produce anything for us to appreciate. But that bee does.
IWDM:
And not only humans. The bear loves that bee's honey product, too. Big old bear, he's just got have that honey. Got to have a little taste of honey. He just ate a whole big salmon, weighed about 20 pounds. But he finds that bee's honey, and he wants some of that too.
IWDM:
And that's the way that the product and labor of a good person, a human person. You asked about comparison between the person who works for humans, serves human life, and the person who works for money. It can be the same, and it could be a difference. But those who work for money to pay bills and support life, or working as a charity to help relieve misery in the human community. No matter which interest is first, if the attitude is right, and if their spirit is right, for wanting pleasant life and pleasant things to happen, and pleasant things to develop, or form for others. If they have this desire to see misery removed, and people living a pleasing life, then they have the interests of the bee. They have the appreciations for beauty, and everything like the bee. They are living in the light, and they are gravitating towards the beautiful pictures. They might not exist in physical form or shape, but they're spiritually beautiful. So this is the time from G-d.
S1:
Yes Imam. Thank you very much Brother Imam.
IWDM:
And thank Allah for the bees.
S1:
That's right. And we thank Allah for you Brother Imam.
IWDM:
Thank you, thank you.
IWDM:
Yes, so we praise G-d, and we conclude with these words, we say, "Highly glorified is G-d."
IWDM:
And we say, "He is the one who has shown us our ways of labor and profit, and had He not shown us the way, we never would have found the way. Praise be to G-d, the Lord, Sustainer of the world. Ameen."
IWDM:
We greet our viewers, and our listening audience with peace, As-salamu alaykum.
IWDM:
They have a bad job, hard job, a dirty job and a dangerous job too, working the coal mines. But really when you think about the ants, they work the soil and they help to condition the soil for planting and all that. They make their contribution to. Everything makes its contribution.
Speaker 2:
We still don't get that sweetness.
IWDM:
Oh, no. You know the bee is symbolic of the scholars. The scholars who love beauty. They love beauty and they have an interest in beautifying life around them and make it as sweet
Speaker 2:
Yes, sir.
IWDM:
the bee is a scholar.


