2007 Fall

Meeting with Imam W.D. Mohammed on Muslim-Presbyterian Dialogue: 2nd Meeting


With G_d's Name, the Merciful Benefactor, the Merciful Redeemer
Fall 2007

Present: Imam W. Deen Mohammed (IWDM), Rev. Robina Winbush (RW), Rev. Jay Rock (JR), Imam Shaheed Ghani (SG), Imam Ronald B. Shaheed (RB)


IWDM: Good to see you, again. JR: I should have worn my suit and tie, again. 


IWDM: No, you're just right for this hot weather. JR: And you drove the bug, the Volkswagen, today.


IWDM: Yes, I love it. It's a heavy car, too. It's not the old one that we used to know. I had one a long time ago...the motor was in the back, the rear. It was a very light car. My son, this is for him. He picked it out and I fell in love with it. He ended up telling me he wanted a Rabbit.


JR: Okay, so you got the Bug.


IWDM: And he got a Rabbit. He wasn't old enough to drive at the time. He's old enough to drive now and he's slow getting his license. So, I'm going to end up with the Rabbit and the Bug...So everything is going well?


JR: Everything is going well and we're happy to be here with you all. 


IWDM: We thank you for honoring us with your presence Sunday.


JR: That was a pleasure and an honor and your message, I don't know whether to call it a khutbah or not; not on the right day for that, but...


IWDM: Did you say a khutbah? I thought you said it was a khutbah. 


JR: No, it wasn't a khutbah. No sir! 


IWDM: I was trying to make a touchdown!


JR: You did that! It was really... I was trying to tell Robina about it this morning. You had so many good points in there.


RW: I heard it was a wonderful Convention.


RS: It was. I thought it was the best one; just the spirit...


IWDM: Yes, being outside on a nice day and it didn't rain on us, it does something for the spirit.


RW: And I heard you had a tent. Was it outside? No?


RS: It was a canopy.


IWDM: It was a small canopy.


RS: We were talking and we said the canopy was the sky, itself.


IWDM: Like the Ka'bah, no roof over it and it's too small for you to live in. So, you've got to live outside like everybody else.


JR: Well, I liked what the mayor said in that little testimonial about this being the first Muslim Convention in the city of Hazel Crest, on Muslim-owned soil.


IWDM: Yes, it was our first.


JR: I thought it was really interesting that he would be that perceptive to notice that and celebrate it.


IWDM: Yes, he's been inviting us to come to his office if we needed him for anything. One of these days when we have some need we'll see. The mayor of Markham, now... that land is in Hazel Crest, but our license had to come from Markham. I don't know why, but we had to get our license to operate from Markham. The plant right across the street, we sold it to Mijack, the big company and we had to get our license from Markham. The mayor, I'm surprised he wasn't there. He told us that he was coming out...


Black Supremacy Preceded White Supremacy In History

I don't know if you all got it, but I think a lot of them did get it. But, my main point or main information that I wanted to share with the audience was that-l mentioned J. A. Rogers-black supremacy preceded white supremacy in history. Africa had a great civilization and Africa was over the whole known world. Well, the Bible even mentions Egypt. There were people who came from Egypt around the world because Egypt was a bread basket at that time. But I'm not talking about Egypt. I'm talking about Kush. There was a great civilization called Kush and they ruled most of what we know as Africa. In an old map that was Ethiopia, Sudan, and much of lower Africa, too. Kush was spread all across there and the Ethiopians, too, were very advanced as a civilization. Ethiopia. So Africa, I believe, influenced Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is small like a tribal country, tribal people, and Arabs have blacks. Saudi Arabia means black Arabia. They're not black, but Saudi Arabia means black Arabia and the Ka'bah, you know it's black. The black stone is sacred and it's black. It's all about nature in its best condition; human nature in its best condition.


"We Are All Bilal"

So that was misinterpreted by later rulers of Africa and they came into a kind of supremacy where they thought they were superior to other people; and they had white slaves. They had white slaves and some of the Americans found that out. Some of the people coming over to America found that out. They learned that. I think they were told that. I wouldn't say this openly, but I think the Jews told them all about it, all about the history of Africa and knowing that they would respond to that. They said, "Once we get up, we're going to take care of these blacks". And that's exactly what they did. And it's in the Bible. It's in the Bible and it's in the Qur'an, very subtly. It's in the Qur'an. It's in the history of Prophet Muhammed's relationship with his companions. You know Bilal? One of his companions-this is recorded as a hadith spoke derogatorily of and he put down Bilal as a person and the Prophet said, "We all are Bilal", meaning that emotional nature you think that he loves, the spiritual life and emotional nature, you have it. Everybody has it. Don't put him down because he is of that nature.


Both Blacks And Whites Were Victims

So I was trying to get us to go back and reflect on that time when black Africa was up and everybody else was down. And they were not nice just like white supremacy was not nice. They both were bad. So whites are victims and blacks are victims of something that they don't know too much about and Shaitan (Satan) was behind it all. Yeah, he was promoting it all.


RW: I have a good colleague and friend... who often talks about the fact that if you read scripture, Ethiopia and Kush are used as validates. And he says you can only validate if you are perceived to have a position of superiority. And so he says we kind of don't pay attention to when it says, in Isaiah, "I will give Ethiopia and Egypt in exchange for you", that there was value, that was something to be valued; and that we have to find ways to reclaim that as a starting point, rather than feeling as though we have to justify our existence.


IWDM: Right, we have a lot...0ne of our best speakers, you all know him, Na'im Akbar, he's heavy into that. He's a psychologist He practiced psychology. I don't know if it was clinical psychology, but his friend practiced clinical psychology; and that was the President of Kennedy King College, Clyde EI-Amin. They came in about the same time and both of them came from the same mindset. They were into psychiatry and psychology and identifying strongly with the so-called glorious history of Africa.

I think the glorious history of Africa was after they converted to Islam. That's what I think. Some Pharaohs were pretty good, but they ended up with a bad name, even though there were some of them who were good for their country.


JR: I was just going to say that I thought it was that you taking us back to into Kush and looking at that whole history made your call at the end of your talk for ending racism, now, really very strong; very strong. I was really struck by that.


IWDM: Yes, we've come through a bad night and a bad day. It's time to wake up! So we want to see if we can find areas where we can work together. If there's just one area and we work it together we can help bring people to a better mind. The more they see people that are different that they think should be at each other saying the same thing, having the same strong foundation as belief in G_d and humanity, I think we can help a lot of people who are lost and beat down, hurt by the world, disappointed sometimes by their own religion-not religion itself, but people.


Being Communities Of Faith In America, Today

J R: Robina and I were sitting here thinking, talking together about our desire, our Church's desire to do this with you all and one of the things we were thinking about is that there would be a great benefit for us to be able to talk together, to understand what's happened in America over the last 100 years, 50 years. Our community has had a certain role and had a certain experience in the whole American life, experiment, whatever you want to call it. And your community has had a certain and different role and experience in America. But, we are both American communities of faith and maybe we could have something to say or something to learn from each other; but also something to say about what it means to be communities of faith in America, today.


IWDM: Yes.


Roles As Agents Of Transformation

RW: In particular, we were talking about the role of our communities in being agents of transformation within the larger society and the larger world. And one of the things I was thinking aloud with Jay about was the reality that in many ways your community grew in so many ways, initially, the teachings of Elijah Mohammed, in response to the contradiction of American racism; and the role of the Christian Church, with the complicity of the Christian Church and American racism. At the same time, over the last 50-60 years the American Church, Christian Church, has had to wrestle with its complicity and begin to figure out how do you dismantle that complicity? So, as we come to this kind of moment in history what is it that we have learn say together given the journeys that each of our communities have taken in response, again, to the contradiction of American racism? And I think that's where I'm fascinated by this image of two peoples who are supposed to be at odds finding a way to speak with one voice, being a powerful witness.


Abraham: A Direction For Community Life On Earth

IWDM: I think our belief in Jesus Christ is exactly this, the belief of the Gospel, the belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the New Testament. I believe the Muslim, Qur'anic picture, of Jesus Christ is the exact one that you all have; no different. But, you say he's Christ and G_d, you know. And we say, no, he's Christ and G_d's servant. But that doesn't mean that we differ as to his nature. We believe in his nature, that his nature was the nature of man in the mode and model that G_d wants for all men. But we believe that nature ascending comes into Christ nature but it doesn't stop there. It eventually comes into, also, the nature of Abraham. Abraham, he's the highest in the heavens, in the seventh heaven.


JR: That's right in that vision that Muhammed saw when he went to Jerusalem.


IWDM: Yes, but we think Abraham represents a direction on earth for community life and his direction is the perfect direction that G_d wants for community life; and that's the direction to enlightenment, education for the community. And we believe that Christ Jesus represents the nature that saves life for man, for individuals and for the whole community. That's why we have to believe in Jesus Christ, in Islam, because that nature in us is what saves us. The Christ nature saves us. So G_d says, "Save /ourselves and your families from hellfire". He didn't say, "I'll do it". He said, "You do it. Save yourselves and your families from hellfire". He says, "I created you to do that". And that's the Christ nature in all of us.

I don't want to teach you Christianity. I can't teach you Christianity. But, I know in the Bible Christ Jesus said, "I in you. I in the father (most important)"; but also, "I in you and you in me", meaning we're this common nature. So we don't differ with the Church as to the nature of Christ Jesus. We know he is the Messiah. He's Christ.


JR: Oh, man, we could have a wonderful conversation about that! 


Christ Is Present

RW: One of the things Jay and I were talking about is our own understanding as a Church and as individuals that when we engage in dialogue, when we sit at the table with others, that Christ by definition is present; and that Christ reveals Christ's self in that conversation and in that dialogue and we discover Christ in deeper roles. And as I'm listening to you that's what's resonating for me with that.


SG: It's also written in the Bible where it says that from the heart the heart is reached. So if you say you feel it resonates for you at the table, then it's coming from the heart. The spirit is registering with you. I arm always feeling good every time I think I'm going to see Imam Mohammed or hear from him. You see him, hear from him or hear his voice and it just uplifts your spirit.


"There's A Morsel Of Flesh"

IWDM: The Arabs have a saying. It's an Arab saying and didn't come from Islam. Islam influenced it, I'm sure. No, I think they had this before Islam even came to them. It says, "There's a morsel of flesh and when it's good the whole body is good and it is the heart. And when it's bad the whole body is bad and it is the heart".


JR: That's wonderful!


RS: And the Bible says as a man thinketh in his heart so is he. Am I quoting it correctly?


JR: Yes. You see this is another reason that we're excited about this entering into this whole period of getting to know each other as communities. It is that so many in your community came out of Christianity and in talking with you we can learn a lot more about our own Christianity.


IWDM: My mother was a strong church woman.


RW: And I don't know any other faith community that we can have that dialogue with. 


JR: Say more about that, Robina.


RW: Because so many within your community began this life's journey within the Christian context, that is not the conversation we would have with the Jewish community. That is not the conversation we would have with the immigrant Muslim community. That is not the conversation we would have with the Hindu or Buddhist community and so it really is a conversation that we benefit from, because if you will for lack of a better image, the separation happened without necessarily the dialogue. And so the dialogue can now happen, because I think we've each grown to a place where we can learn some things a bout ourselves and about the Christian tradition; and hopefully witness to some things about what it means for us to be Christian in this context. Again, I think this moment in history has prepared us for it and I'm excited about it. I mean, I'm extremely excited about it.


"We’ll Understand It Better By And By"

IWDM: Yes, Muhammed, the Prophet, peace be on him, he was in a situation where he could not reach h is own people the way he wanted to reach them. Why, because in the Qur'an it says that you are a people that did not receive scripture before. He came from idol worshippers. There worship was really the worship of the material things in creation and they gave divinity to some of those things, like the sun, moon and some other objects; and even some things in the earth, like the pagan people. And even mankind, they did not have the scriptural picture of mankind given in scripture that came before Islam, that came before the Qur'an.

So it was very difficult for Prophet Muhammed to give them the real meat of the Qur'an, very difficult. They would give him a lot of trouble, having difficulty believing in the spiritual side, the spiritual reality. He told them, why don't you ask the Christians? They will verify that this is the way. In the Qur'an it says ask them, meaning the people of the book.

And his last message resounded with that difficulty that he was having. It's called the last sermon by some translators. First, he thanked G_d and asked G_d to witness that he had conveyed the message that G_d charged him with to deliver and he said, "You who are present give it to those who are absent and those that you give it to give it to others; and maybe the last to receive it will understand it"


JR: Maybe someday we'll understand this message that we've been given?


IWDM: Well, my mother was from the Black Church and I used to hear her say a lot, "You'll understand it better by and by".


RS: That was the words of a song that I heard all of my life, "By and by when the morning comes..." 


SG: "And all of the saints of G_d..."


RW: "We'll tell the story of how we've overcome...We'll understand it better by and by". And you know, when I was a child I didn't like that, because I wanted to understand it now. But only when you live long enough do you realize or understand that you can't understand everything right now. I mean you don't have the maturity to know it now.


IWDM: And we're learning, always. It's so deep so you'll never learn it all. Mankind will be learning, forever.


An Alternative Entertainment Culture

JR: Imam I was also inspired by what you were saying on Sunday...it seems like yesterday, but Sunday; about the entertainment culture and who owns the entertainment culture; and who really benefits from the entertainment culture; and how it is if we want to have a culture that reflects our values, we're going to have to create an alternative. And at the Convention I felt that I saw so much of the work that you and others have done creating an alternative and having it bear fruit.


IWDM: It takes all of us. We can't do it by ourselves.


JR: That's what I was thinking. I was thinking, "You know what? We need to create an alternative, too, because that entertainment culture doesn't serve us Christian people any more than it serves you."


IWDM: That's right. A taste of money invites you to sin.


RW: They say it's designed to seduce and destroy.


JR: Exactly, that's what the Imam was saying. It's Satan at work. At least that is what I heard you saying.


IWDM: It's his playhouse.


JR: Yes sir. You know, out of that I was thinking, and maybe you were referring to this the first thing you said here today. I was thinking whatever we decide we want to talk about we might also want to think about having an action component of what we do together; that in addition to having a series of "get togethers" to talk and get to know each other, we might want to have some kind of time focusing on some project or some kind of concrete action that we could take together. Does that seem like a good thing?


IWDM: We can do it on our stage and you do it on your stage, but we're doing something that going to give us the same results; have the same effect on people's lives and get the same results; money and change for the better in the people.


JR: Do you have a picture of what that might look like in your mind?


IWDM: I don't know. That's why I'm saying I hope that we could come up with something, you know. I don't know. But, say if it's a plan to compete with Satan for the behavior of the people. He's entertaining them. Let us entertain them, too, so they can have a choice. Right now, I think they have a choice.


JR: So, are you talking about...


IWDM: Planning culture.


JR: Yes, trying to explore together how we might call people to some kind of a different way of living.


IWDM: Yes, for the public life.


RW: It would seem to me that would require also require and articulation of a value system that we might share.


IWDM: Uh huh, we do share a value system. 


RW: And the ability to articulate that as a vision.


JR: But what you said took me from my track and put me on another track, because I was thinking s mailer than you were. I was thinking about some kind of concrete project in a particular community or communities. And then, all of a sudden, I heard you saying we could use our stages that we have, the reach that we each have as communities together to promote something larger; promote something that would really call people...is that right?


IWDM: Yes.


JR: So you weren't thinking so much of a concrete program in Chicago, for instance, to deal with liquors stores or crime or anything like that. You were thinking of something that was...


IWDM: I think that would be a big mistake to try that. That's the way Satan wants us to go and then he can turn the people against us.


RW: And now we're getting into the work of dialogue. If we were to take the larger issue of violence which in the context of the World Council of Churches is a major focus right now. We're in a decade to overcome violence, whatever that means. That becomes the big piece, that we articulate a different value system, a different reality, replace with a vision. But we begin in a community somewhere. A concrete expression of that becomes how do our communities work together in one tangible way to reverse the violence that's going on towards another reality, another vision that can be held; whether it's reversing the violence domestically; whether it's reversing the violence between youth. Whatever it is we say that on our different platforms we, together, articulate this vision of reversing violence. And then in some local community we find ways to work together to make that a visible reality. Is that a possibility?


The Importance Of Home Life For People Of Faith

IWDM: Home life, as I understand it, for Christians is the same as home life for good Muslims, good Jews, everybody, right? So, if we address home life I think we can do it all together; bring those values back to home life.


JR: I like that.


RW: So would we have a big picture and then we and then we live it out in a tangible way?


IWDM: You know home is very important; very important. So important that it's mentioned in the Qur'an what's mentioned in the Bible. It says that the people were told to make your homes your qibla. That means make your home the place for securing the life G_d wants for mankind. And it was because it was so endangered if they would expose it to the public, they were told to keep it behind closed doors. Keep your sacred life in the home. Make the sacred life like a temple. I don't want to say temple, but that's what it meant, make your home the temple. And for us it would be make your home the qibla. And you know in the Bible plagues were hitting everybody, but the Jews, they marked their homes with blood and the plagues passed over them. And I think it's saying the same thing; that their homes were protected because they spilled the blood of the animal and left only the righteous blood there in that house. So the harm, the plagues, that were touching everybody passed over them. And for me it was a red cross in blood. That's the way I read it.


SG: There was a movie that they showed in which they did use a red cross. They put a red mark on each one of the doors.


IWDM: That's the picture you get when you read the Bible, that they put the mark of blood. They marked their doors with blood.


RS: Do you think that's where the Red Cross comes from, because that is what they do? 


IWDM: I guess so. That could be.


JR: There's one thing, you know, I said on Sunday, that we as Presbyterians had a case of holy envy. Remember that?


RS: I remember that you said that. 


Lights Have Gone Out In The House

JR: One of the things I was trying to say is that as Christians, in some ways, our sense of discipline in the service of G_d is not as strong as it used to be. And one of the places of envy that I at least and others in the Church feel in regards to the Muslim community is envying the acceptance of the discipline that it takes to really be a follower. And that's something that I would love to reclaim for my community and I think that our relationship could help in that respect, too.


IWDM: And we have suffered, but I think mostly in the other direction. We have given all the importance to rituals and discipline and lights have gone out in the house. So together we can do a good job helping the world. Yes, the Muslims leaders, they have messed up the world for all the Muslims. Some of them are not part of it, but the ones who have the anger and the rage they get all of the attention. The good guys, we don't see them.


RW: Some of us feel that way about some of our brethren within the Christian community right now also, in terms of those who articulate a venom.


RS: Evangelicals and all that? 


JR: Some of our own even. 


Exclusive Righteousness

RW: But there is an exclusive self-righteousness that suggests I can only find acceptance if you go to hell. And so it starts off as kind of a subtle, "My way is the right way". But then it just explodes.


RS: Almost basking in the fact that, "I'm better than you are and you're going to hell"?


RW: You have to be and I do everything I know how to do to maintain that sense, that false sense of security.


IWDM: Yeah, I used to think preachers-they don't do it as much now. But when I was young that's what they would be telling you, "You're going to hell". And they talked about hell so much, that I said, "Who's going to talk about to heaven". All of them are fighting to make you come in their door, but they miss a lot of us because a lot of us we see them as ugly, you know. They're just saying everybody is going to hell because don't them believe like them? Well, we see them as ugly, not nice. So who's going to show the face of Jesus Christ? He wasn't all beautiful preaching. John the Baptist might have been ready for something like that, but Jesus Christ was not in that mold.


In Every Generation A Remnant

RW: I continue to be in awe and grateful to G_d that in every generation there's been a remnant that has always sought a higher way, has sought the way of life; and a way of reconciliation and a way of justice; in every generation. And so it's almost as though you look for that remnant. You know, when you see that that is ugly you look for the remnant, because you know G_d has placed that remnant in someone.


IWDM: That's right. The world is changing for the better. I do believe that. Yes, because we used to be so fixed in what we believed in that we didn't have any interest in anybody else. But that's changing. You know we have to come together and I think great numbers from all the religions they're ready for us to come together. And it's a smaller number that's going to defy the will of G_d and the will of mankind.


JR: This might be overreaching, but maybe one of the purposes of our getting together could be to try to articulate just what this is about, this need to come together. As you were saying on Sunday, because of the need to serve all humankind we have to understand that all of our faiths call us to serve not just the little group, but all of humankind.


IWDM: Exactly.


RW: To what end may I ask?


IWDM: To what end?


JR: I've got my answer, but I'd rather hear the Imam's.


IWDM: Well, I think the answer is going to be the same; to the end that we educate as many as possible, the public, our publics, that we educate them so that they will know what we know about the direction for humanity or for the life that G_d wants in human beings on this planet earth.


RW: So that the world might be transformed for good?


IWDM: Yes and it will be. There is no doubt about it.


Question: What form of news media, television, etc. do you have in your organization?


JR: Well, it's all getting reorganized right now, but we do have a news service and we've got a couple of magazines, women's magazine and a Presbyterian Today magazine that goes out to a large subscription list.


IWDM: That's what we need. We don't have it yet. And really I had a meeting with some Christian leaders. It was a dialogue meeting and when I finished talking one of the Christian ladies, a white lady, she said to me, "We like what you said." She said, "You can easily get that message out to the public, because that's not the way that we're seeing Muslims and Islam." So, she made me aware that we're not doing enough to reach out to the public. Look at how we perceive women. You have a publication for women and the Arabs have it, too, but, we don't.


JR: We have very strong Presbyterian women and they are one of the strongest parts of the Church.


RW: Actually, I'm the exception to that, but, yeah, they are extremely strong. The other thing is that even in the midst of our reorganization we also have good access to other forms of media through our ecumenical relationships... We've done some stuff through the National Council of Churches. We have access to their communication division. Our in house has become smaller but it also has made us more dependable upon our external partners to help us do some of the stuff that we do.


JR: We also have a very good production department. It's small now, much smaller than it was and they don't have any money. So we have to hire our own people and pay them to make videos and stuff for us. But we've got a recording studio, video recording studio, and we can produce stuff if we find the money for it.


IWDM: I was invited to the Church in New York, Riverside.


JR: By James Forest?


IWDM: Yes, it was just after news got out that I was the new leader after my father.


JR: Oh, back in 1975? That was before William Sloan.


Christian People Rescuing Us

IWDM: I think it was in 1976, but it was when the news was getting out that I was the leader of the Nation of Islam. They invited me to Riverside Church and I went because they invited me and I knew they were important people. So, I went but I was wondering what they wanted to see me about; what did they want to talk to me about. And as soon as I got there they took me into a little office and we sat down. He said, "Mr. Mohammed, this church has a budget and we also have a gift from Governor Rockefeller". He said, "We have touched that principle. It was such a sizable gift that we just worked with the interest. We don't touch the principle." He said, "You know what makes money?" I said, "No, what?" He said, "Publications. You should have publications." We haven't gotten there yet, but I know publications make money. But I'm just saying that to say, "Here's some Christians who invited the son of Elijah Mohammed because they thought he was going to make a nice turn, going to steer the following in a nice way and they were sharing their knowledge with me to help me prepare the community to have a better future". And I appreciate them a lot for that.

But, you know, when Prophet Muhammed and his followers were being persecuted in Saudi Arabia, in their own land, he told a group of them, a group of common people, "Go to Ethiopia. There's a great ruler there. He will listen to you." He said, "Tell them of the persecution here and see if he will have you there so you can escape this bad condition." They went and sure enough he accepted them. So we have in the history of Prophet Muhammed Christian people rescuing us. And I have in my own leadership a history of fine people helping me from among Christians and you're another one.


JR: Well, I hope to live into that one. I wouldn't put myself in that light.


IWDM: Yes, you're another one.


The Rain Comes Because Of G_D's Blessing

JR: Oh, look at this! G_d is blessing us with some more rain.


IWDM: And we needed it, too...in the time of our Prophet there was a situation like a drought. They were traveling and rain came and it was brought to the Prophet's attention that there was a difference of opinion as to why the rain came at that particular time. So, they said to the Prophet, "Some of the people are saying the rain came because of the position of a certain star in the heavens; and others are saying that the rain came because of as a blessing from Allah." He said, "Those who said it came as a blessing they are correct." So you know I'm a very practical person. I think my father and the Nation of Islam made me that way; very practical person. And my nature is like that. Maybe I took it from his nature, I don't know. But I prefer the rational and I'll tolerate mysteries out of respect, but I go with the rational. That's what I move with. But, I just like those people, you know. I will know perhaps the scientific explanation for it, but I still stand on G_d's blessing. After all, all of the world belongs to Him. The whole creation belongs to Him...


FW: ...I think that one of the things that Jay and I had been talking about as we came here to this meeting is how do we come out of today with a plan for our meetings together with our Church and your community and what does that look like? Who do we need to begin to make sure we invite to be part of the conversation on our side and who will you want to have at the table on your side? How do we begin to shape this in a way that can carry us forward?


IWDM: Well, the next time that we meet there are a few persons, one is a female and one is an older man...He was Lucious X, I believe...! would like to see with us and perhaps the sister from Rockford. You know the sister from Rockford.


SG: Sister Rasheedah Saleem.


IWDM: Yes and there might be some others we might want.


RW: Are you thinking primarily of folks from within the Chicago community or...


IWDM: No, he's not in Chicago. He's been out of our area for a long time, now, 25 years maybe. He's staying in the South but I don't know exactly where he's located now. But I know how to find it, how to reach him.


Dialogue Meetings At Least Twice A Year

JR: We were thinking and want to see how you respond to this. We were beginning to think of a four year span of time during which we would have get togethers at least twice a year, more than just half a day; but like several days. And don't think we go much further than that in terms of thinking about possibilities. How does that seem?


IWDM: That seems to me to be where we should start; a good starting place. Yes, I think that's where we should start and I'm sure that G_d will show us the way. It'll come out.


JR: We can try to write this up and send it to Ronald. Do we want to try to identify topics and stuff like that or do we want to do we want to say we're going to have these next get togethers and start talking and see where G_d leads us?


IWDM: Well, I think we've made some progress already for our focus, so let's not back up, or lose the focus.


RW: And I'm wondering if out of that focus comes the general themes that we might explore; at the same time we leave room for the Spirit to move and guide and direct us in that process.


JR: For me, one of the things that really stands out is this idea of exploring together how we might cooperate in calling people to a different way of life, using our different platforms, as you said.


IWDM: I like that.


"Hidden Partners"

JR: That's a big umbrella and an important task.


RW: And part of the process in that is the ability to engage in dialogue and articulate the value systems from each of our traditions and where we find commonality.


IWDM: Yes that's needed. I think that's needed because we're more familiar with our own value system and we know that they're compatible. But to, as you say, articulate what we know of our value system in your presence and you articulate yours, now, it could be very helpful. It could help progress the dialogue and it also, I think, will serve to support us going in a good direction for reaching the public in a good way as hidden partners. And I say, "Hidden partners", because we'll be operating from our stage and not mentioning any connection with the Presbyterian Church and I'm sure you'll operate from your stage and do the same.


RW: Although there may come a point in which we do need to say that we have not gotten to this by ourselves. But, we've gotten to this point in dialogue and in relationship with you.


IWDM: That's no problem for us. We'll get to that point, too.


RW: Exactly, because that's part of the gift of the witness together. It says we're being pushed and we're growing and hopefully we're sharing and pushing and leaving space for...


IWDM: We wouldn't want it not to be public that we're having dialogue. We want that, because that's how I think we're going to affect the public. We going to affect that lost public out there in a positive way if they know we're in dialogue, if they know we smile when we meet, if they know we love one another. Yes, that's why I wanted to go see the Pope. I said, "The son of Elijah Mohammed gets an audience with the Pope. It's going to change the way people look at the following that's under the son of Elijah Mohammed." And it did. It worked. I never told the Pope I was using him.


JR: You know what? He was using you, too.


IWDM: He sure was. You're right! Oh yeah, I realized that, afterwards; quite a bit. That is true, but it's good.


RW: So you would think about maybe six or seven folks coming to the table?


IWDM: Yes.


JR: And we'll try to bring the same.


IWDM: Yes, that's a good number, six or seven. And I think that would be plenty for us.


JR: We were thinking about trying people from the different cultural groups in our Church, but also a lot of people with connections with congregations, with a few other folks thrown in. You know we have ten seminaries as part of our Church; ten that educate ministers and other workers in the Church and probably want to have somebody from that world.


RW: And probably wanting to have someone who, in terms of congregationally based, is engaged in ministry within a community, a church that would be in a community where they may already be working with one of your communities or have the possibility of that. At the same time, we might bring i n someone from a congregation who's working in a community that may or may not have that relationship. And so that for us becomes learning opportunities all across the board. I glad that you're going to invite another sister to the table, because that would also be important for us as well in terms of the engagement.


IWDM: I didn't mention her name but I'm thinking Sister Aisha, the editor of the Muslim Journal, she comes from church life, strong church life. Her father was a pastor and I think she has been, already in situations that permitted her to get to know Christian leadership.


JR: Now, is she from here in Chicago?


IWDM: Yes, she's from here.


JR: I think that I have me her.


IWDM: Yes, she's the editor of the Muslim Journal.


JR: I've met her then.


RW: I met her... there was a meeting here in Chicago a while ago, about four years ago. I think I met her, then.


JR: There was a meeting and I was with a group from the National Council of Churches that was meeting at the University of Chicago and Sister Aisha came and gave the history of your community.


IWDM: Do you think she'd be a good one to be involved in this dialogue? 


JR: Oh, she did a fantastic job. I was so moved when she was done. 


IWDM: She's a woman of faith, so you think it would be okay for her to come? 


JR: Well that's your decision but I would love to see her again.


IWDM: I think she's a good one to be a part of this and the other sister that I mentioned, I'm inviting her for as much of a chance for her improve her own soul. She's a good woman but she needs more light to shine from the pages of scripture on her, you know. So insha Allah (if it's G_d's Will), by her coming...she's a good person and she loves to work for humanity, not just for small concerns. So, I think she'd be good and I think Sister Aisha would be good. That's two. You know who would be good? He's an entertainer but he's got a deep, deep soul, Wilmore Sadiki; genuine believer who's interested in mankind and he's a Muslim. He practices his religion. That's three, right? And you (Ronald Shaheed) make four. I'm not really final on Beyah. I have to talk to him. I haven't seen him for a long time and they tell me he wants to talk to me. So I'll talk to him and if I feel what I think could be there, still, in his heart, then I'll invite him to join this group. He knows the Bible, that's for sure.


RW: You have articulated something I think we have to be mindful of. And for me, I get excited. It's the idea of people of deep faith coming to the table together, so that we're really coming out of the depth of who we are when we meet. I think we probably need to be mindful.


JR: That's better, because we were thinking more of categories of people and this is a much better of way of thinking. The truth is there are people in our Church that would be just as suspicious of you all as all get out. You know that?


IWDM: I know that. Yes and we could just invite you to any of our meetings and we'd have the same situation.


JR: I mean, we don't want to wade through that kind of suspicion and educating people is too precious an opportunity.


Faith Is Sincerity

RW: And you know, the other hand, what we have to be mindful of is making sure we invite folks who are rooted in their faith and who operate out of their faith, because if that well is not deep, then I'm not sure we would give you the best of who we are and it would be difficult for folks to articulate. Because what I'm seeing, really, is faith meeting faith; not tradition or community, but really faith meeting faith.


IWDM: Right, exactly, because as for faith we're all the same if we're sincere.


RW: And if there be differences, the faith allows us to hear with an openness and with a security that otherwise we wouldn't have.


IWDM: Yes, our Prophet, he said, "Faith is sincerity". That's his exact words. And when you set down a person of faith from a different persuasion, scripture, when you sit down with that person and begin to have an exchange, after a while you forget that person is of a different persuasion. That's vanishes and you're just embracing a brother or sister of faith. I've experienced that a lot.


RS: Brother Imam, I don't know if I've ever shared this with you, but when I first met Jay was what year, Jay?


JR: It was in '98. Was it '98?


RS: I think it might have been in 1998. Dr. John Borelli, he knew me from when he went with us to Rome to see Pope John Paul II.


IWDM: Yes, I remember him very well.

Getting Past Labels

RS: So, he called me and asked me if I would be interested in participating in a dialogue. It was at St. John's University in Minnesota. Jay, John Borelli and a man named, Patrick Henry, they had established a dialogue. They brought two representatives from...


JR: There were five traditions and there were twenty of us. There were three or four people from each community was it?


RS: Yes, because you brought an orthodox Jew and a reformed Jew, for example. You brought a Pentecostal, Buddhist, etc.


JR: Three Muslims, right?


RS: Yes. So anyway, the way they set it up was before we could have any dialogue everyone had to tell their story about how they were trying to live their faith in America...We had to talk about our human experience in trying to be faithful before we could talk about our faiths and just like you explained it and by the time we got to dialoguing we already had gotten past our differences.


IWDM: Labels. 


RS: Yes sir, labels.


JR: The rule was nobody could interrupt. You couldn't interrupt people. You couldn't argue with people. It was great.


RW: I have been in other consultations and that model in the first person is such a healthy and useful model, because it forces us to engage one another's traditions in people, not in ideology.


IWDM: Could you all give some thought to anybody in the community leadership that we might want to invite and let me know right away?


RS: Yes sir. What about the time, place and all of that?


JR: We need to find one. I didn't come with a suggestion, Ronald.


IWDM: I think it should be a place that favors all the participants coming there as much as possible. It can be anywhere you want. Where is your office located? What city is it in?


JR: Louisville, Kentucky. 


IWDM: That's a nice place. 


RW: We would love to host you!


IWDM. That's a nice place, believe me! I've been there. That's a nice place and I think everybody would like to go there, if for no other reason than because of Muhammad Ali.


JR: We have the Muhammad Ali Center.


IWDM: I know it.


JR: We could even have a session at the Muhammad Ali Center.


IWDM: Wow, that would be something!


RW: And he still has a home there, I believe. His sister-in-law is a Presbyterian.


JR: Is that right?


RW: Delores Williams.


JR: Oh, really? I didn't know that. I didn't know she was his sister-in-law.


RW: If you look at his wife and you look at Delores you will see the relationship.


RS: What about the time frame?


JR: For us it is going to have to be after next June I'm afraid, because we've got our major bi-annual General Assembly meeting in June and between now and June it's going to be amazingly hectic.


IWDM: That's helpful for us because we need time. That's good for us.


RW: For us, even though it would need to be after June and I don't if it would need to be after September for you (I don't know what July and August would be like), but even if we were to meet early fall we could set a date sooner rather than later. That would probably be helpful for all of us just to make sure people would have it on their calendars.


JR: We could do something in early July.


IWDM: That sounds great. That will give us enough time between that meeting and our Convention. We do need at least three months to work on our Convention. We start being busy, real busy, about two months before the Convention. And the Convention is in September, Labor Day weekend. So early July is good as long as it is not on the 4th of July. I really observe the 4th of July, Independence day, not hot dog eating. Yes, Satan says, "Let's have a hot dog on the 4th of July".


RW: Imam, I had to cancel our last meeting because I was trying to get ready to go to Ghana. And I was instructed (by Ronald Shaheed) to bring something back. So, here it is.


IWDM: Thank you very much.


RW: And I'm following my instructions, well.


IWDM: Again, thank you very much and when I travel abroad I'm going to remember you, too.
