04/15/2008
IWDM Study Library
Carthage College Public Lecture

By Imam W. Deen Mohammed
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
I think the beauty that we see outside is certainly matched by the beauty of what we share inside the Seabird Chapel. It is indeed beautiful when sisters and brothers can gather in unity, can open themselves to dialogue, can seek mutual understanding, and also most importantly, can share common attention to the needs of this fragile world, A world that is ours to share, A world that we together must honor and preserve for the future generations, and a world that right now continues to overflow with the grace of G-d. So it is in this spirit that I, the Dean of Seabird Chapel, welcome all of you to Carthage and I say without any hesitation, it is good that we are here and especially welcome to you Imam Wallace Deen Mohammed. Thank you.
Imam WD Mohammed:
Thank you.
Dr. Thomas Simpson:
We gathered today as a community to welcome Imam Warith Deen Mohammed. He is our Spring Heritage speaker for this semester and in the Heritage Studies program. In the core curriculum program here at Carthage College, we share in a quest for knowledge, we share a quest for goodness, and we seek to find the stories of past and present ages that inspire us to seek that knowledge and goodness. And in that spirit, we have invited Imam Warith Deen Mohammed. This is a man that Beliefnet, a site that I recommend to you on issues of religion and spirituality. Beliefnet recently called him the most important Muslim you've never heard of. That will change after today. You'll very much have heard of him after today and you will know his story and why he's seen as such an influential person. Influential. Any narrative of the history of Islam in the modern world or any history of race in the United States is incomplete if it fails to include the remarkable story of this man. So, to understand something of WD Mohammed's significance, we have to understand something about his past. From infancy. Imam Mohammed was groomed for leadership in an organization called The Nation of Islam. The organization bore only a faint resemblance to more traditional or Orthodox versions of Islam outside the United States. Instead, the Nation of Islam blended elements of Islam and Black Nationalism. It emphasized black self-reliance and self-knowledge. And it rejected the integrationist goals of Civil Rights leaders like Martin Luther King Jr. The Nation of Islam's most famous, most infamous, I should say, and inflammatory teaching was that whites were created evil. And for evidence of their demonic nature, one only had to witness the history of colonialism, slavery and racial segregation.
Dr. Thomas Simpson:
Malcolm X was the Nation of Islam's most famous spokesperson in the late 1950s and early 1960s. But the official leader of the organization was Imam Mohammed's father Elijah Muhammad. Elijah Muhammad's followers referred to him as the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and the Messenger of G-d. Elijah Muhammad's teacher was a mysterious figure named WD Fard, who claimed to be G-d in person. Elijah Muhammad led the Nation of Islam for some 40 years from the mid 1930s to the mid 1970s. And during that period Imam Mohammed, his name was Wallace D Muhammad then, he was told that he was divinely predestined to succeed his father as the leader of the Nation of Islam. The story we will hear today is the story of how Imam Mohammed gradually discovered what he considers to be true Islam and how that discovery propelled him away from the Nation of Islam and toward a vision of world brotherhood and sisterhood. Today, Imam Mohammed is recognized around the world as a leader in the effort to bring people of all races, cultures, and religions together. We gather with Imam Mohammed today because we share his desire for knowledge, goodness, and peace. Please welcome me, pardon. Please join me in welcoming Imam Warith Deen Mohammed. Thank you.
Imam WD Mohammed:
We Praise G-d and we pray that G-d accepts our presentation. I remember experiencing something early on quite well. When my father’s teacher first start introducing the religion of Islam in the black community, he started in Detroit, Michigan, in the four areas where African Americans were concentrated. And that introduction came from a group called the Ahmadiyya. And this is a group that is also considered outside of mainstream Islam. Yes. And we believe WD Fard was influenced by this group. And when he left, he left my father as the Temple leader, the head of the religious organization. It wasn't called Mosque. Mosque is what Muslims called their places of worship all around the world. Ours were called Temple, the Holy Temple of Islam. That's what it was named. Anyway, he left my father in charge, but there was a unit, military unit, not a real army, but just to discipline the following, the men mainly. And the women had a similar unit also to themselves. These units I think were copied from Booker T Washington's school that they built and had included military drill to help discipline the thinking, the mind, to help get the blacks to be more organized.

Mr Fard copied the same. And he established what was and still is called under Minister Farrakhan, the Fruit of Islam, FOI, Fruit, Fruit of Islam, meaning product of Islam, Islamic influences. I remember the head of being told, pardon me, the head of that unit was my father's blood brother. His name was Kalat Muhammad. And the following divided when the teacher left, who was not an American, as I told you, and there was competition for the following. They were competing for the following. My father, Elijah Muhammad, Elijah Poole Muhammad, his Christian family name was Poole before he had changed it to Elijah Muhammad or before it was changed to Elijah Muhammad. His brother got big support from the men in the military unit called FOI, Fruit of Islam.

And they encouraged him to take over, take control of the organization from my father. So, what I'm getting at is my own experience with rejection, with people who were rejected. We were told that he and his followers were really out to kill my father. And my father moved from Detroit to Chicago and established his headquarters in Chicago, following his teacher who had left Detroit, came to Chicago, taught in the black, always in the black community, taught in the black community of Chicago. And then last place he went to was Milwaukee and he taught in that community. And each place he spoke in, he gained a following and left the following there. So, he was establishing, he established three other Temples himself with my father as his assistant. And now they got 200 maybe or more Temples throughout the United States. Getting back to the problem, my Uncle Kalat, I'm a little boy and maybe about seven or eight years old, and he saw me in the streets once in the neighborhood and he said, "Son, As Salaam Alaikum," gave me the greetings of the Temple of Islam.

And I didn't give him the greetings back because I knew my parents wouldn't approve of me doing that. He was the one who was fighting my father and supported by people who wanted the leadership to be taken from my father. And we were told that physical threats had been carried out too. So anyway, I couldn't speak to him, but he touched me inside because he didn't appear to look like a bad man. He didn't speak to me like a bad man. So, what I felt was not something from a bad man. I felt something from a good man, but I couldn't accept him. And another experience I had was, I left at home by my father. My father, on a Wednesday night, they would have court. If there was anyone who had in the language of the Temple of Islam broken the law, anyone who had broken the law, they would be heard and maybe tried and a decision made.

And they would be either put out of the Nation of Islam, put out the Temple of Islam, pardon me, put out of the Temple of Islam for their infraction. Anyway, this night I was doing my homework kind of late. And I imagine, I know from the house, we moved from that house when I was 13. So, I had to have been like 11 or 12 years old. And my father, I'm surprised, I'm thinking they're in the bed because it's like 10 o'clock almost at night. And he came down all dressed up and my mother's behind him coming down the stairs from the bedroom areas all dressed up, little cheap wood frame house 61-16 Michigan. And they're coming down the stairs. And I looked up and see them. My father said, "Son, we are going to leave you with the house. We have to go out and take care of some business, your mother and I, so we are going to leave you with the house." I didn't think much of it then.

I knew I was the only one in the house. And that didn't happen. That was the first time that ever happened that I was the only one at home and was going to be left alone there. They left. And it was a season, I don't know the month, but I know it had to have been a season when nights, when the night turns cold. So, like Spring or Fall, but I'm sure it was close to Spring. So, they left, and now the house starts talking to me, making funny noises. I got scared, I was afraid. I was so afraid. And now it's time for me to go to bed. I finished my homework and I'm sleepy, very sleepy. So, I went upstairs to my bedroom and I remember holding my hands out like this because this is the only way we prayed. And we don't in the world of Muslims, International world of Muslims, this is not called Salat, prayer.

This is called du'a, pleading to G-d. That's what this is called. Pleading to G-d or calling to G-d. So, I held my hand, we were not taught the regular Salat, which is very important in Islam. The Salat as Muslims practice it all around the world. So, I'm holding my hand like this cause that's all I know. This is how I know to pray. And I say, Oh Allah, I remember my exact words. Oh Allah, if I'm not seeing You correctly, will you please help me see You correctly? That's what I said. So, I never did give it much thought until much later. And I'm a grown man, got one child, Layla, our daughter, our first child, and I start to feel the pressure of the contradictions in the teachings that this mysterious man left among us. And I'm looking back now, I say, wow. I said, I didn't just start having problems with the teachings or the language of the Nation or Temple of Islam. It must've been bothering me even back then because if it wasn't bothering me, why would I ask G-d am I seeing You, please show me how to see You if I'm not seeing You correctly.

So, bringing it up closer now to the present time. When I learned Arabic, and who made it possible for me to learn Arabic? My father, the leader, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, head of the Nation of Islam or the Holy Temples of Islam in North America, the full statement, In the wilderness of North America. So anyway, I'm having other problems too. And I said to myself, I cannot accept that it's wrong for Christians to believe that a man is the embodiment of G-d or G-d is in the body of a man. I said so if I can't accept that, I can't accept that this mysterious man who looks like a white man, this picture, the picture he left looks like a white man, pious white man. Only picture he allowed to be circulated of him is a picture of him holding the Qur'an, our Bible, and he's looking so piously and concentrated. He looked like all of his being is concentrated right there in the pages that he's looking at. Anyway, it got to my father that I didn't believe in G-d the way they believed in G-d. So, my father took me to trial. He had a hearing and had the Supreme Captain who was very stern, especially when there was an infraction. You're not obeying. And he was sitting there and he had two of those little small business briefcases, attaché cases. And one was open filled with money and he just had it there, right there for me to look at, for me to see it. So, we are sitting at this little long table, little long, narrow, narrow table, and he said, "It's reported that you don't believe in our savior Allah." He said, "Who is Allah if it's not our Savior?" I said, well daddy, you have the Qur'an, the Holy Qur'an. I said, I wouldn't want to tell you. You're familiar with what the Holy Qur'an says.

He didn't answer that. He didn't reply to that. So, he gave me another chance. He says, "You know what's going to happen?" I said, yes sir. He said, I guess he wasn't satisfied that I knew what was going to happen I guess. He said, "You're going to be put out, excommunicated. That is banished. You're going to be put out and you're going to have it hard." Now he was not singling me out for any special treatment. This is the thing that would be done for anybody who broke the law. He said, "You won't be able to call here and speak to your mother." I said, yes sir, I understand. So, when he didn't get me to change, he excused me. He said, "Well, you are not to come back here." And he excused me. I went to the door and my mother asked my father's permission. She was not in that particular room, but she was outside in another area. So, she saw me coming out of that room. She asked my father, say, "May I go with him to the door?" And my father said "Yes." She went to the door with me, front door.

Now this is a nice house in Woodlawn of Chicago where Chicago University near Chicago University. This is when he moved up. He moved up. He went into business and built businesses and attracted a lot of blacks. So now his following is much, much more bigger than it was when we were living in that little frame house on 61-16 Michigan Avenue when I first had that experience, being afraid, left alone. We are now living in what we call the mansion. And my mother took me, went with me to the door. I stepped out the door and she stepped out halfway out the door. She said, "Son, if you go back in there and tell your father that you agree to the terms that he want you to agree to, she said, he'll accept you back." She was hurt knowing that I was going out on my own and she didn't know how I was going to fare. So, I said, Mama, did Mr. Fard tell you all he was G-d? And she looked like she was in deep thought for a few seconds. She said no. She said, "In fact, he told us that Prophet was too big a name, Prophet was too big a name for him." He introduced himself as Professor Fard. But he did leave hints that would cause my father or anyone familiar with the Bible enough to know Christ Jesus, Peace be Upon him, his role, would see that this man was actually coming in the role of Christ Jesus and meant for his following to accept him in that role. So anyway, she said no. I said, well Mama, how can you insist that I accept a man as G-d who told you all Prophet was too big a name for him. And she was puzzled quite bit and burdened quite bit. The confusion and hurt was on her face and I left. And it tore my heart out and tore her heart out.

That was another experience I had that helped shape my life for where I am now. Helped shape my life where I'm now. So, I am trying to please my father. I had another experience. I was sent to prison for failing to answer the Selective Service order to go to Elgin State Hospital and do conscious, conscientious objectors work. I had no problem with that, but my father could never accept that I was safe even if I did that. He was thinking of me being safe and I'm thinking of me being compliant with the law so I don't go to jail. I got a girlfriend that I had been promising I was going to marry and afraid I was going to be sent away at any time. So, it was prolonging that for me and I wanted to get married. So, this is a big thing for me going to jail.

So, I didn't want to go to jail and I did get a conscientious objector status. So, I went to prison and in prison I'm hearing what's going on outside, and it's not getting better for the religious community. It's turning into more business and more black power thing. So this is not what I felt comfortable with as a member of the Nation of Islam. The Nation of Islam spirit and membership is changing. Changing from religious community people, a religious following to a kind of worldly following. Anyway, I said to myself, I said, when I go back out, I'll never teach that again. I made up my mind in prison. Prison can help you think straight.

I said, I'll never go out and teach that teaching again. So, when I was finally paroled, I didn't get parole on the first opportunity. Second opportunity they paroled me and I'm going back home now. They picked me up, the Supreme Captain and the Assistant Captain. Assistant Supreme Captain, Supreme Captain Raymond Sharif, the Assistant Supreme Captain is my brother, Elijah Muhammad Jr. They drove up there, just the two of them and picked me up to take me home. All the way, they telling me about what has gone wrong and for the money, that we've overextended ourselves in buying property and we subject to lose everything material they saying.

And I'm wondering, don't they know that I've been locked up for 15 months in this place. I don't want to hear all this stuff. I want to see mama and daddy and family. And my family. I suffered that all the way from Sandstone, Minnesota to 48- 47 Woodlawn, where my parents was living at that time in Chicago. So, when we get there, what happens? My brother, who's a manager of Muhammad Ali, he rushes toward me before I can get to the door of the house and he gives me an envelope. He said, "Here, take this, this'll help you. You don't need to be a burden on daddy. This will help you, take this." A little manila envelope.

I didn't like that either. I said, why would he want to help me before I see my father? Let me go in the house and see him. Give me that later. I didn't look and see into it to see what was in it. Later on, $10,000 was in that envelope. So, I go in and see my father and everything and I didn't want to preach, but thank G-d he excused me from that obligation right away. After I greeted him and everything, he said, "Well son, it won't be good for you to just go right back into preaching, being a Minister." So, I understood that. So, I came back in, but I was not free to actually speak to the audience and I think he was really protecting me and his following.

That was the experience for me. And it didn't happen once. Somebody told him, "Daddy, we saw Wallace on the street and he was looking real bad." Maybe I had on my work clothes, but I wasn't suffering. I was all right. So, he let me back in. I was reported again for the same thing, teaching a different idea of G-d than what they were believing in. Again, he put me out. The last time he accepted me back was just before, right after the assassination of Malcolm, the killing of Malcolm X or Malcolm Shabazz. When I heard on the radio that Malcolm had been assassinated, I moved almost upon instinct, impulse and I went to phone. I just got in from work. I went to the phone and I called my father. Now you wasn't supposed to do this because you are outside. You've been excommunicated. I called him and one of the secretaries who's very powerful, maybe the strongest of his secretaries when it came to getting things done and moving people who are in the way.

So, she answered the phone and she said, "Dear Holy Apostle, your son Wallace is on the phone." He came to the phone. I was gambling that he would after the assassination of Malcolm X. So, he came to the phone and I spoke to him. He said, "Yes son." I said, daddy, I said, you have your Savior's Day coming up and I want to be there at your side Savior's Day. It was coming up like the next day, two days I think after the assassination of Malcolm X. It was right near the Savior's Day of our community. He said, "Well, you know what that means?" I said, yes sir. He said, "You'll have to come before the people." He always asks you and then answer. He said, "You'll have to come before the people and you have to tell them that you were wrong." I said, yes sir.

So that Savior's Day I come through a wall of FOI men. It looked like it was a half a block long. It started on the streets and I walked between the wall of brothers shoulder to shoulder, they were, and it took me all the way to the rostrum room where my father was. And I guess he knew, he knew I was coming. He had already paused in his speech and he turned around and looked at me. I was just right there at the podium, almost right there at that time. He said, and he turned around and he looked at his followers. He said, "My son Wallace is back." And they all were very quiet and still. Usually they would be clap, clap, clap, stand up- "All Praises due to Allah." But they didn't do that. They just very quiet and still. And I came to the podium and I said to them, I said, no one is to question the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. And I walked away and I got away with it. I didn't say I was wrong. I said, no one is to question the Honorable Elijah Muhammad.

So that's the main highlights in my story. But I've had a lot of spiritual experiences as you perhaps will know or guess. But I mentioned in the beginning that I had difficulty not responding to my Uncle Kalat, who was supposed to have been the enemy and also leading a violent group against my father. I had difficulty not responding to him as a child when I felt his goodness in his innocence and saw it in his face. And that's true of my experiences with whites when I was young. They told me the white people are born devils. But when I looked in their faces, and some of them would speak to me, son, are you all right? I always had a lonely face, a sad face, they said, I didn't think I did. I wasn't sad, that's a fact. That's a fact. But they would think that and people would ask me, blacks more than whites, but I've had whites ask me too, you okay son? Everything's all right? I say yes. So that's all I wanted to say at this time. And I perhaps took too much time. Thank you.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
We have an opportunity to engage in some dialogue, an opportunity to ask questions and invite the imam to respond. If I'm correct, there are microphones to the side. And Professor Simpson and I also have some questions that we'd like to do to get the discussion started. And Brother Imam, we hope that you'll be comfortable in your seat here so you don't have to come. We'll bring the mic right to you.
Imam WD Mohammed:
Thank you. Yes.
Audience Member:
I'd like to ask a question and it really relates to my personal experience.
Imam WD Mohammed:
That's good enough.
Audience Member:
As a child, I remember your father wrote a book, How to Eat to Live. And I just would like to bring up about how to eat to live and ask the question about the motivation for addressing the issues of nutrition and health within the black community at that time. And then related to that, I'd like to know about how your views and teaching address some of the current concerns with public health in our country. It has to do with the health of the diet and the emotional health of people in our country today. But going back to first initially How to Eat to Live and what motivated that particular book and it being kind of a sign of the message of Islam in the black community.
Imam WD Mohammed:
Yes, the work of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, the leader for us, was in his own words, my job is to clean you up and put you in a decent dress. That was a statement he would often make. Prepare you, to prepare you. And he would use that language too- To prepare you. So we had a diet that I think was respecting if not following exactly or following it, respecting what is the diet for Muslims in our Holy book, the Qur'an. Yes, no pork. No pork, no liquors, no pork, no strong drinks and just certain foods, healthy foods, vegetables, vegetables, fruits and some starch. Starch of course, but not a lot of it. But we ate too much sweets. That was one thing that was not too good about it. Too much cake and pies and turnovers that I love so much. Yeah, apple turnovers and peach turnovers.

Oh man, that stuff has killed me. It almost killed me. Yes, I'm a number two diabetic right now and I got it under control. The discipline that they put in me as a young junior FOI, it stayed with me. So I know how to stay away from things that hurt me when I find out something's hurting me. And yes, so the diet was also spiritual. It was to be understood as a spiritual diet, not just a material diet or food, the diet from physical food. So, it was teaching us to train our willpower and to stay away from things that are no good for us. And the dress was also to be understood in the cultural language. Not just a dress, not just a suit, but dressing the soul, dressing the soul and the spirit. To wear always a decent dress. And the business, poor men that were used to looking like bums in the street, they come and join the Nation of Islam, they put on a businessman, bankers. Bankers dress. Yes. Every day suit, nice dress shirt, tie. So, what it was doing, it was really changing the way we felt inside and changing where we put our values and it was lifting our spirit and ego, lifting it up from being crushed, lifting it up high even though we were poor. Hard to find 50 cent on some of us sometimes, but we would be, shoes would be shined. That was the law. Shoes had to be shined. You come to the Temple, your shoes not shined, they send you back home. Yes. So, all of that was putting us in new dress. African in America, asked permission from my father once to interview for his PhD, he was campaigning for PhD. So he asked my father, can I interview the leaders? And also, some of the following. My father permitted him to do that. And he didn't give permission often to people to do things like that.

But he gave permission to this brother. Essien Udoom is his name, and he wrote the book called Black Nationalism, I think it's titled Black Nationalism: An attempt to put Black people into a Culture of their own. That was his understanding of it, the way he saw it. And I appreciate the diet, I still follow it and I tell those who leave the Nation of Islam or leave the Temple and break it and they go back to the bad habits. I say, why you leave something good and go back to your bad habits? I said, I've been out of the Nation, put out of the Nation, put out of the Temple. I say, I never throw down the good. I never put away the good. I keep it, but I didn't keep the shirt and tie. They couldn't hardly keep it on me in the Nation of Islam when I was going there. As soon as I get out of Temple, I'll take the tie off. I think I have some kind of complex, I think I have genes of some black person who was hung or something, right away. So, I kept it. They say, you still don't smoke. I say, why should I smoke? It's not good for me. I said, I obey my mother as though she's still here right with me.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
Okay, and professor, you have probably a protocol for coming to the mic. So, after this question, would you let people know about that? I'd like to ask a question now. This comes reflecting as a Pastor about the Christian tradition regarding Saints and martyrs, particularly emphasis on the martyrs. And we teach basically, I think we can say that people who represent the life of faith, people who experience G-d's power and love in exceptional ways, people who are extraordinarily compassionate, devoted to service and of course people who suffer and often have been killed because of their faith. All of these come together in how we understand Saints, and among the Saints of the martyrs. So, the emphasis is on the faith, on the life, and on the example of how G-d's presence is revealed in their stories. And I'd like to ask you to share your views about Saints and martyrs from the Islamic tradition, their place as examples and also perhaps some of the teaching that you feel is correct and true to tradition about martyrs and their place in the life of G-d's people.
Imam WD Mohammed:
Yes, thank you. Yes sir. Yes. We believe in angels too. Maybe some of the belief in Saints for Christians may be understood in our language as angels, angels, angels. We know angels are unseen, but angels also come in men, come in human beings also. A message can come from G-d or from some other soul, but from G-d mainly to us in the person of a human being. And that human being might not be aware that they're actually acting in the role of an angel. They're bringing the message from G-d to us, to people. So, we believe that that some of this belief in Saints and maybe even martyrs that have passed away. for us it may be like angels and we believe that they still live. And our Holy book says "Speak not of My servants as dead for they are alive. And you understand it not." That is to be seen in both ways, in two ways. Mainly in two ways. Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him, he said "Everything that's written in scripture and he says that goes also for me is to be seen as a direct message, but is also to be understood as an indirect communication" pardon me. As for that communication that's coming directly, but also communication that comes indirectly, not directly.

So, getting back to martyrs, martyrs. The Qur'an and the Prophet kind of takes some of the, I would say glamor away from the martyr. Prophet Muhammad, he said, "The ink of the scholar is more precious than the blood of the martyr." And he said that to say education is more important than going out dying for the cause, education is more important. Yes. So I hope that was enough. I don't know.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
That's fine. It's just that a lot of the common conversation has I think an imbalanced view about martyrs that as an Islamic teaching about martyrs that somehow makes that the highest calling, the highest expression of faith. And I think that is inaccurate.
Imam WD Mohammed:
Yes it is. Yes it is. You know, Jihad. One of our great philosophers, he said the best jihad or the most important jihad is jihad that you experience internally, the jihad to keep out bad thoughts, the jihad to follow G-d's way and not be attracted, tempted to not follow His way. So it's jihad with the inclinations, with the bad inclinations or weak tendencies that's in ourselves. That's the greatest jihad. And I witnessed that and I witness that that is the greatest jihad. But certainly Muslims have an obligation to defend themselves. But the Muslims are to never to be the aggressors. This is what is the rule in Islam. We never to be the aggressors. We are not to start fights, but we are obligated to defend our way of life. And that is a great jihad and a great sacrifice on the part of the individual. To be willing to lose their life in battle so that those back home will be safe and a way will still be open for us to have our practice, our religion.

So that is very important. But I think we have to know that Islam is not asking us to come and all get around, clamor around that, and cheer that, and boost, encourage people to go out and kill, kill and risk their life. And suicide is a sin in Islam, just as it is in Christianity. Yeah, it's a sin. It's a sin. No less a sin in Islam than it is in Christianity. So, we are not supposed to take our own life. G-d is the one who takes life and give permission for life to be taken. So, if we take our own life, then we haven't trusted G-d with our lives.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
Thank you, thank you.
Dr. Thomas Simpson:
Thank you. I'm glad the conversation has taken the direction that it has because I think one of the things that Imam Mohamed is known for is his relentless pursuit of knowledge and insight and education. And he's given credit by his biographers for leading a kind of quiet revolution among African-Americans in this country where the emphasis was on discipline and on knowledge and on the pursuit of spiritual insight, right in the thick of the Black Power Movement and right in the thick of activities in a racially polarized society in the 1960's. 1970's that really tore at the fabric of this country. And Imam Mohammed's emphasis on education is something that is exemplary for all of us, I think is very safe to say. I would like to open up the floor for questions from the audience. We have microphones stationed on either side of the main floor of the sanctuary here and also, I believe we have the ability to get up to the balcony as well. And we have a wonderful opportunity to engage Imam Mohammed in conversation. He is a leader in the American Muslim community and a leader in trying to bring us all together as we face the problems of the 21st century. And so I encourage your questions and I invite them.
Audience Member:
Professor, he has a mic coming to you, right?
Dr, Thomas Simpson:
Yeah.
Speaker 8:
In my class, we were talking about how it was pointed out to me by my students that Islam is growing in the world faster than any other religion. And I believe that may probably be the case in America as well. Now we were speculating that things grow by religions, by conversion and because people find something, I won't say better but attractive about this. So, my question is, I know this is kind of an unfair one because there are probably many, many answers, but in your mind, what is the primary attraction of Islam in the world and in this country? And are they the same? If somebody were without religion, what is the principle attraction that we certainly know is there? Because it's growing, no doubt about that.
Imam WD Mohammed:
In the African-American community, I think that the main attraction is the responsibility placed on the male and the family. The male is supposed to be a leader in his household. He's an Imam in his own house and he's supposed to be the one who provides for his family. And this is not a seen when we look at the black community and most of the males, they're not accepting responsibility to be the leaders for their families and they're not accepting responsibility to be the breadwinners, the maintainers. In the Qur'an it's i translated maintainer, meaning to provide for the women what they need in the household, a decent place to live and all of the necessities of life, food, clothing, shelter, all that. So, I think when the males come from the streets, most of them, poor neighborhoods, they come from the streets, most of them, but some of them from homes, nice homes and protected life, a protected life.

But I think when they see and know the message that's to the male, that's given to the male in our religion, it awakens in them an appreciation for their role in society and their value as men, human beings, and men. That's one thing. And another thing is if you're preaching, giving a lecture on Friday the main day, like Sunday for the Christian Church. And you start hooping and hollering and giving yourself to emotionalism, it's unbecoming in Islam for one who's supposed to be teaching us to get to start preaching and lose himself to emotions. And this is something that's characteristic of the Church in the black community.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
I'm guilty.
Imam WD Mohammed:
You guilty too?
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
Yes sir.
Imam WD Mohammed:
Oh, okay. But you are levelheaded. I know you can handle it.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
Thank you.
Imam WD Mohammed:
But many of our preachers are not levelheaded and we know that. They lose themselves. And I think that kind of emotion, emotionalism that we have put up with, encouraged, I think it is a main factor that has worked to degenerate the leadership in the black community, church leadership in the black community who many preach just to be seen and show they got a show going. And some of them preach just to get money and keep up the lifestyle, the expensive lifestyle. So African-Americans come to the Temple and they hear, now to the Mosque under my leadership, to the Mosque, and they see, they experience a different environment. They experience a sober rational environment that's pointing to their responsibility and showing them how we all should be identifying in a community life and not just separately or in something of our own. I think that makes the big difference. And I believe that's why we attract a lot of the males to come into our religion. Now we wouldn't do so well around some of the other denominations of Christianity who are very soulful, very sober and speak to the essence of human beings. We speak to the essence of human beings, we on target.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
Just wanted to ask for the follow up. Professor Hyman was trying to compare this now with internationally and the growth of Islam around the world. I think the figure that I have in my notes is 1.7 billion, billion Muslims to date. And so this question about the appeal broadly is also important. Sometimes we ask this question because embedded in it is a question about both the diversity in expressions of Islam and the perhaps vision for Islam to be united on a basis of some sense of common cause that affirms the place of the religion within the world community. So, I just wanted to ask you to follow up about his question about international as well.
Imam WD Mohammed:
Yes.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
Thank you.
Imam WD Mohammed:
Yes, the numbers, I hear that a lot. I believe we should be pleased and happy that we are growing in numbers, but at the same time we should be cautious and look at the mindset and the quality and the spirit of these numbers as they're growing. Because it could mean trouble for us down the road. I'd rather see people serious about having good character, decent life and being a part of the family of man and being conscious of that and conscious of our obligations, our obligation to the family of man, not just to the people around us. I'd rather see that kind of following growing than to think that these big numbers may be coming from people who have experienced some kind of terrible fallout and suffering cell damage.
Audience Member:
My question was what advice would you give to young people on how to be more spiritual without being too extreme? To me it seems like it's mostly for older people. Young people we don't, it's boring or we're not interested or we don't relate to it until like later on in life. So, what advice would you give for the young people, of different religions different cultures, different colors to be more unified for the future than we have in the past. And I guess to interest us.
Imam WD Mohammed:
Yes. Well quickly I would say we should... For Christians, Jesus Christ is the model of the life G-d wants in all of us. I never read in the Bible and believe me, I am pretty well read. I never read in the Bible that Jesus gave himself, gave into emotions or emotionalism. And I never read that any other of the great figures in the Bible gave themselves to emotions and emotionalism. So why should we be doing that as Christians? I don't think that's Christian. I think that habit comes from somewhere else. And occasionally the Pope has to go to Africa and ask them to come back to Catholicism. Yeah, because they get into their tribal thing, the culture of their tribes or their people in their regions, and they confuse that with the religion. And Islam suffers that too. We got a lot of stuff now supposed to be Islam, teaching Islam, and its stuff that has come from the culture of the people. For instance, this fear of letting women out of the house and not trusting them with the responsibility for themselves as moral and rational people. That's not Islam. We have in the life of the Prophet, in the time of the Prophet women who obviously was participating in what was going on publicly because it said that a question came from a woman to the Prophet and also to one of his companions after his passing away, Peace be upon them. And the woman was correcting the head of the religion, the head of the religion, like the Khalifa. We don't have such heads anymore, but she was questioning him. So, I think we have to know what is true for the religion and what is culture or the influence from past history, cultures in our past and cultures presently. And also our leaders, some of them are careless not to stick with that that is supported by the teachings of the Qur'an and the Prophet. They're not careful to make sure that what they're preaching is in line with that and not disrespecting that. So, we get a lot of stuff into religion from our leaders too that is not our religion. It weakens our religion. It takes the purity from our religion. That's how it weakens our religion, and it also changes the way we perceive our religion. So, we have a lot of problems, but I think these problems are for all people, not just for us Muslims.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
Thank you.
Audience Member:
I have a question. What are your views on working together in harmony between Christians and Muslims?
Imam WD Mohammed:
I didn't quite hear it.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
He said your views on working together in harmony between Christians and Muslims working together.
Imam WD Mohammed:
My views?
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
Yes.
Imam WD Mohammed:
We need leadership and everybody's not going to be a student of their faith, of their religion, of their Bible. But we need leaders who are and we got them and we need more. And we need them to communicate what is best, speak to the issues now and communicate what is best for us now and in the future. How are we going to live with other people? The earth has become one living room now and we are one community on this earth brought together by necessity, by needs, material needs and the growth of media and the economy, the growth of business to bring us into one economic world, one world of economics and business. So, we can't escape that. And we need to then prepare ourselves firstly as leaders and then speak the best that we come up with to our publics so that we grow closer and closer to each other toward the common good, in the interest of the common good. And also, in the interest of humanity.
Imam WD Mohammed:
A child can't hide what it's feeling in his heart and what it thinks is right in his heart. So, what it says, I think your Bible says that a little child shall lead them. And to me that means going back to your innocence. Innocence of a child, not that a little child going to lead us, but go back to the innocence of a child. And if we do that we'll be able to work with one another, not just tolerate each other and not just trust each other, but we'll go further than that. We'll actually look for opportunities to join each other in a service that's going to help everybody.
Dr. Thomas Simpson:
Professor over here as well.
Audience Member:
Thank you so much for being with us today.
Imam WD Mohammed:
Thank you.
Audience Member:
I'd like to ask you a question about your father's ideas and your understanding of your father's ideas. Your father is associated with the idea that African Americans would be better off or would've better off separating and creating their own society rather than trying to integrate into American society. I'm curious to what extent did he continue to believe that until the end of his life, and this is a speculative question, but would you say that if he were to view American society today that he would say that he was right or perhaps that he was not right?
Imam WD Mohammed:
Yeah. Well, I feel that if I say what I feel about families. Family, when your child, you grow up under the parents, you're supposed to, and that's a training to prepare you, equip you with what you need to join the broad public or the society, the society. Well, I believe a race that was brought here as slaves and first lived on plantations as slaves and then freed, but suffered a lot of discrimination, rejections, et cetera. And then went through a lot of hardship to have Jews and whites, American whites support us and win, eventually win acceptance, get full citizenship in this country, and respect from the law. We still don't have it from certain individuals. Human beings will never be perfect. We are never to think that everybody's going to love us. That's unreal. But we got the law on our side and most of the decent people on our side. And now I don't see why we should have any problem having faith in a future here in America with the support that Barack Obama is getting from whites in big numbers, and Spanish.
Audience Member:
Immigrant Muslims migrated to especially Detroit, to the area since the 1880s. I'm wondering what was the impact, if there was any impact or interaction in Islam and immigrant Muslims. Did the immigrant Muslims try to persuade the Nation of Islam towards traditional or orthodox Islam. And secondly, when you separated from the Nation of Islam, did you ever consider going over to be a Shia Muslim?
Imam WD Mohammed:
Okay, for the first question, I think we have proof and evidence that the members of the Nation of Islam under the Minister Farrakhan, are coming in like they used to, it always was a transit kind of following. That is they come and maybe stay from 60 to 90 days and they're not there anymore. That's why they have to be all the time out. They call it fishing. That's the language in the Nation of Islam, fishing. They have to always be inviting and influencing people to come and join the Nation of Islam because they don't keep a big following. They won't keep a big following. So, it's a transitory kind of following, I mean conversion and following, followers that come in and they spend so much time. the pressure is too much to go back out. I think it was intentionally done that way so that we reached a big number of people over a period of time.

We reached a big number of people with our influence. We didn't keep them, but the influence is there and the influence stays. For most of them, the influence stays. You'd be surprised how much some Church, African-American Church followers follow the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. They're not following his religion, but they have been influenced to appreciate certain things that he said that has caused them to have even more discipline in their lives and to be more conscious of their responsibility to their families, et cetera. And to their community, to the black community. Yes. So, for the second question, I believe it was about, repeat it to me. My mind is so filled with things. Repeat the second question to me.
Audience Member:
The second part, basically when your father formulated his teachings, did he all appropriate from Sunni rather than Shia Islam.
Imam WD Mohammed:
Yes. I remember now.
Audience Member:
When you left the Nation of Islam, you attracted influence from the Shia Muslims.
Imam WD Mohammed:
Yes, yes. Well personally I think the circumstances, mostly bad that gave birth to the Shia and also gave birth to Sunni I guess had to happen. But I wish we could overcome it now. I wish we both could just go to the purity of both Sunni and Muslim, pardon me, and Sunni and Shia Muslim could go to the purity of Islam and don't even engage the question of our differences. But just go to the purity of the Qur'an and the life example of our Prophet Muhammad and try to conform more closely to that so that we in time get rid of the need to call ourselves Sunni and Shia and something else. I don't like for us to be divided that way because under the Prophet we weren't, there was no Shia and no Sunni. Muslims were all Muslims and they were all practicing the tradition or following the tradition, the Qur'an and the tradition of our Prophet. And we didn't have any Sunni Muslims. We had Sunni prayers and Sunni this and Sunni that, practices, but no Sunni Muslims. So, I think it was a big mistake that was made. But I believe you are aware, you may be aware that there were things in the teachings of the Nation of Islam that point more to Shia than to Sunni, than to Sunni. And many our members have joined the Shia people. And we don't go around like McCarthy asking them, questioning them about their mind and their faith or their beliefs. I hope that answers your question.
Audience Member:
We'll talk later.
Imam WD Mohammed:
Okay. Alright. Inshallah. G-d willing
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
Professor Simpson, I'm looking at my watch, so I want you to let me know what the framework is that's appropriate.
Dr. Thomas Simpson:
We have time for it.
Imam WD Mohammed:
Let me look.
Dr. Thomas Simpson:
Yes sir.
Imam WD Mohammed:
Well by my watch time is out, but by your watch you got 15 minutes.
Dr. Thomas Simpson:
We'll compromise.
Imam WD Mohammed:
I hope that was all right. I'm just playing but serious you know.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
While he is on the way up. I'll ask my question then. This pertains to politics, to electoral politics in particular. If I'm correct, two members of the United States House of Representatives are Muslim right now.
Imam WD Mohammed:
Yes.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
And I don't know much about...
Imam WD Mohammed:
Muslim from our community.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
They are.
Imam WD Mohammed:
Yes, from my association. Yes, there might be others, but I know we have two.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
So, as I recognize the kind of vision that you are presenting, which has to do very much with how faith impacts the quality of life as expressed really through the quality of leaders.
Imam WD Mohammed:
Yes.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
Then I'm wondering if you have a hope for Muslims, Jews, Christians, those of other faiths to really see themselves as needed in the electoral, in politics. And particularly in terms of running for office. That is a good thing and would be important.
Imam WD Mohammed:
Yes, we encourage it. I think it's a necessity for us. It's a must that we be represented in all the good quarters of life, all the good quarters of life. We turn this world over to bad people and then complain. Why don't we help put good people in leadership and in responsible places and government.
Audience Member:
Hello. My question is something that happened a few months ago. An organization of Muslim scholars collectively wrote a letter to the Catholic Pope encouraging a dialogue that was focused on the similarities between Islam and Catholicism. I was wondering, first of all, are you familiar with that, and if so, what do you think could and should be the result of such dialogues?
Imam WD Mohammed:
I didn't hear all the words, so I'm not feeling comfortable that I should answer without you making it clear to me exactly.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
He was speaking of the group of Muslim scholars who wrote to the Pope and invited a serious dialogue and to try to claim the common ground that could be neutrally discerned between the leaders of Islam and Catholicism. And I think his question was how did you feel about that? Was that your question?
Audience Member:
I was curious as to what we think could and should be the results of such dialogue? Or if you were familiar with this letter at all.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
Given the letter, what do you feel should be the result of a dialogue like that?
Imam WD Mohammed:
Well, Muslim leaders, I don't know if that group know this, but Muslim leaders have met with Pope John Paul too. He welcomed Muslim leaders to come to the Vatican. They have a very excellent Islamic library and Islamic dialogue that they were encouraging in Rome, in the Vatican. So, I don't know, I think this group might have been looking at how Prophet Muhammad sent messages out to leaders inviting them to become Muslims and to engage them in discussion, or what we call dialogue now. I think that might have been what they were motivated by. And that is good. But believe me, I wouldn't waste my time.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
Do you need to follow up?
Imam WD Mohammed:
I think it's a waste of time to ask the Pope. You'd be surprised what the Pope have access to.
Audience Member:
I'm curious as to why.
Imam WD Mohammed:
He has more Holy Qur'ans than the all the Muslims in America. The Vatican got more Holy Qur'ans than all the African-American Muslims. I was there. I know. So, what more can we give him? He talks to the best qualified Muslims around the country, around the world, pardon me, around the world. He talks to them, they come there and he goes, occasionally, a Pope will go to an area and meet Muslims outside of the Vatican too. So, the Pope is in a position where he has to be in touch with what's going on around the world and to think he's like people were in the time of the Prophet, they need to be, have a chance to hear the religion, to know the religion. No, he knows the religion and he made his choice. And I don't want to waste his time and I don't want to waste mine. I wouldn't do that.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
Final word Professor. Your frankness your wisdom.
Imam WD Mohammed:
I got that from my mama, my frankness.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
Definitely your experience, I think fulfills every aspect of the call and invitation that has been extended. Our community has indeed been enriched and certainly challenged, I think to think more deeply about how the intellectual life of all people is reflected in how they express their faith as well as how their faith drives their concern to grow in knowledge and understanding. think
Imam WD Mohammed:
Could I add one thing? Muslims should know that the Prophet said that G-d showed him the hell and also showed him the paradise heaven. And he said he saw in heaven, now this is the end of time now, this is pointing to the end of time. He saw in heaven Christians, followers of Jesus, Jews, followers of Moses, and Muslims, the followers of himself. And he said that they all were there in heaven. So, they all there in heaven. We better get ready to be together right here on earth.
Pastor Harvard Stephens:
Well, I'm very, very happy that we have had the opportunity to sit with you and this has felt a bit intimate. We feel very close to you. Our students, our community has really, I think appreciated the opportunity to see you in person and to also have had the opportunity to speak with you in some of our classrooms earlier today. And we look forward to how our symposium will unfold tomorrow as well as we continue with the kind of exchange we've had tonight. So, I'd like to thank you on behalf of the Carthage Community for honoring our invitation today and also all of the classes as well as all who commented and asked questions. They were well thought out and I think that contributed to our experience today. And Peace be with all of you. And again, we'd like to applaud you again.


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