00/00/2004
IWDM Study Library
Tony Brown’s Journal Interview

By Imam W. Deen Mohammed
Speaker 1:
All of us at WNW Society support Tony Brown's Journal and Public Television. Tony Brown's Journal is brought to you in part by the office of National Drug Control Policy and the Partnership for A Drug Free America. Between 4:00 P.M. And 6:00 P.M. is when kids are most likely to try drugs. Monitoring your kids' activities doesn't mean you don't trust them. Kids want parents to be parents, communication is connection.
S1:
There's something the world should know about the Muslim that I'm going to interview on this program. He might just be responsible for a united America without 3 million African-American Muslims, being disenchanted with their own country. You are the spiritual leader of 2.5 or 3 million African-American Muslims.
IWDM:
That's what I'm told.
S1:
That's what you're told? Well that's what I'm told as well. And I do know for a fact that you are a product of a man who was greatly respected and someone whose opinions are strongly sought after. I don't think there could be a better time in history, than to come to you and ask you to help all of us understand Islam and really help with developing insight into what's happening. From your point of view, what is happening in terms of Osama Bin Laden and his version of Islam?
IWDM:
Well, I'm not sure that Osama Bin Laden, is really the... has been accepted as the leader of Islamic community life worldwide or even anywhere in Saudi Arabia. I'm not sure of that. I would think that he's not. I would think that the Islamic world is still divided by many different [inaudible 00:02:03] schools of thought, and also by many personalities like Osama Bin Laden. But definitely he has tapped at the attention of the world, because he identified as the mastermind behind the horrible thing that was done to our country.
IWDM:
I feel, that most of the Muslims of the world are relying upon their local people, the religious leaders, for understanding and guidance. A great number, maybe many times bigger than that number are depending on themselves. They go through their Holy books privately and they depend on their own opinions and mind and thinking.
IWDM:
And thank G-d that most of the Muslims don't, accept to have their freedom taken away. Most of the Muslims, even in countries where the freedom is taken away, most of the Muslims insist that you go privately, to the word of G-d and they know our prophet Muhammad, they know his life and that's what it is really. The ruling in the Islamic world. Even though you can't see that, it's because the powerful Islamic faith, the political order, the governments are not accepting that the people express themselves openly and freely.
S1:
Among those who are not Muslim, there is the tendency, I have read a lot of articles, there is the tendency to take the belief of the Islamic hope for effect and generalize it to the world's entire population of Muslims. For example, I read an article by one writer who said, "At one time, President Bush was trying to convince the world, that Muslims are peaceful, but a handful of Muslims are doing these sort of things," but what I'm seeing now, it shows many Muslims who agree with Osama Bin Laden, that this must be what Islam basically teaches. How do you respond to that?
IWDM:
The development in the world presently, not to mention the crusades, that's still in the minds of the Muslim world as well, not to mention 1947, when Israel was established and they were establishing Israel as a faith. And what was the home of the Jews and the Palestinians. The things that are happening now, like the problems for the Palestinians and Israelis and Kashmir and India, all of these troubles are on the minds of Muslims especially Muslim leaders. And they can't just look at what happened on the 11th of September and isolate it from all these other things.
IWDM:
What we have is a damaged psyche of the Muslim world. Most of the leaders, they have a damaged psyche and when I say damaged psyche, I'm sure they won't agree with me, when I say damaged psyche I mean that these troubles in the world that have, been used by them in their thinking, to say that this is why we don't have peace in the world. It's because, Christianity fought against us and the crusades, they caused colonial days, they imposed life on us in our countries. Under colonialism and under the colonial state, we had to give up our life and the cost of what they did to the Middle East, establish Israel over there on us.
IWDM:
And choose Jerusalem and make this the capital. All those things on their minds. So with these things on their minds naturally, they will get bitter, become more bitter and more bitter and some enraged and become very, very destructive, self destructive as well. So we have to look at the whole picture to see what is the psyche of the Muslim World. And when I say the Muslim world I'm speaking mainly of Muslim leaders who influence the Muslim World. So their way of thinking is bitter. There are readings in the Quran that address the problem that the Palestinians are having in Israel. But never are we to become the wrongdoers in the eyes of G-d because we want to get at wrongdoers.
S1:
Your school of thought is basically traditional Sunni Islam, is that correct?
IWDM:
Yes.
S1:
Someone came to you, and I'd like for you to help me understand this, because I don't know the details, someone came to you approximately five years ago. From a country in the Middle East, a very influential and wealthy man.
IWDM:
Yes.
S1:
And attempted to get you to teach a form of Islam or to promote a form of Islam, am I accurately saying that that form of Islam is closer to what we call Wahhabism?
IWDM:
Well just for a little clarification, this person did not indicate to me that he came with any interest in me accepting any particular school of thought.
IWDM:
This person came to me and impressed me with this idea that you need to have us as your big brother. No, no. Pardon me, as your father and you and your other leaders are your brothers and you need us as your father. And that moved with impression that I was to lot [inaudible 00:08:52] with them, have no parts of you that's different with him and those associated with him back in his country in the leadership. And it so happened that the school of thought for that country is Wahabbi School of Thought.
S1:
Now can you explain for the audience what Wahhabi Islam is like.
IWDM:
Well I can't because it's made public, I don't live in Saudi Arabia.
S1:
We're not talking about Saudi Arabia.
IWDM:
Yes. I visit there but I don't live there.
S1:
It's been compared to the type of fundamental Islam that is advocated by the Taliban. Would that be unfair?
IWDM:
In my opinion, I would say that I have nothing in my knowledge than in my opinion. With the kings I have been the guest of two Kings of Saudi Arabia. And I have nothing in my knowledge and experience to support that. My knowledge and experience tells me that Saudi Arabia's leadership is moderate. We looked at some extreme nations of Islam that we have now. I would say Muslim centers that are in the news. When we look at them, I would say Saudi Arabia is a moderate not an extremist. And I also say Saudi Arabia is mainly interested in getting the Quran, our holy book, and the pure teaching of the Islam, the life of our prophet to Muslims.
IWDM:
And that's the priority for the Islamic world. We received many Qurans and much good help from them. Even with our school curriculum, they were ready to help us to develop our school curriculum. I don't believe that Saudi Arabia is in the hands of extremists.
IWDM:
I believe that there are extremists among them.
S1:
If you had accepted... And I want to be clear here, you rejected this offer?
IWDM:
Yes.
S1:
Why didn't you reject the offer of becoming the child to a new parent? The religious offspring, if I'm saying this correctly.
IWDM:
I guess it's because my father raised me well and my mother did a marvelous job.
S1:
And translated, that means what?
IWDM:
I have my own mind. And I won't give it up.
S1:
I want you to help understand because I don't. What the difference is between what you're teaching, what you were teaching and what you thought you would have to teach if you entered into this new relationship? With this [inaudible] from Saudi Arabia. We're not attacking Saudi Arabia. We're certainly not attacking-
IWDM:
No, you're not. definitely not,. When I was a child, young as I can remember maybe five or six years old, I can recall myself sitting in the seats with all the other Muslims, listening to my father preach to the congregation. What impressed me most at the time and it stayed with me until now, it's what he said Islam was then. He said, "Islam is freedom, justice and equality and no one can take that from me." Freedom, justice and equality.
S1:
If you entered into this relationship, do you fear you would have lost your freedom, your equality? And you would not have gotten justice?
IWDM:
Exactly. For my soul and for my mind-
S1:
But you are, and were and the leader of 3 million African-Americans who are members of your Islamic Organization.
S1:
You are the spiritual leader. So you would have been taking black Americans who are Muslims in a different direction. Would you have not? Would that not have been the result? If you had accepted this relationship?
IWDM:
If I had accepted that relationship, I would have given up my leadership and abandoned what I feel to be my duty to my community.
S1:
What would your community have got to in terms of the spiritual?
IWDM:
They would have gotten a man and they probably would have accepted me. They love me. They would have gotten a man for their leader who would have not been their leader. Their leader would have been whoever was dictating thoughts, opinions, thinking and policies to them through me.
S1:
You would have become a conduit?
IWDM:
Yes sir.
S1:
What I want you to help me understand is what would the message have been through you as a conduit?
IWDM:
The message-
S1:
What would you have told the 3 million African Americans Islam was, that is different from what you continue to tell them and what you tell them today?
IWDM:
I would have simply been in a position to tell them that for you to see Islam look abroad.
S1:
Look abroad and look to Saudi Arabia?
IWDM:
I don't want to say it's okay.
S1:
You don't have to tolerate it. They would have to look abroad. And if they looked abroad are they going to see a more extremist, fundamentalist, Islam than you teach?
IWDM:
Well I wasn't seeing it as extremist. I wasn't seeing it even fundamentalist, I was seeing it as ritualistic. They would have had a more ritualistic life than a rational life.
S1:
Explain that please.
IWDM:
They would have simply been following the rituals of prayer, the rituals of Hajj etc but not being free thinkers.
S1:
How to be a Muslim in America. They would not have been adapting and learning, you emphasize do you not?
IWDM:
Their rational mind would have been filled [crosstalk 00:15:31] influencing their thinking as Muslims.
S1:
Would they have in your opinion been better Americans, if they simply were ritualistic Muslims or do you believe it-
IWDM:
They would have no place in America. This is the land of the free.
S1:
They would not have been able [inaudible 00:15:51] ideology-
IWDM:
They would have been monsters and zombies, walking around in America.
S1:
Monsters, zombies-
IWDM:
In America if you are not thinking on your own, if somebody else is dictating your life and your thinking and everything, you're not human.
S1:
Let me be specific. September the 11th, the year 2001 came along five years later. Had you in that five year period been teaching this other philosophy that someone wanted you to teach, in view on the conduit position where you were simply passing along ideology, would today in America, many, if not, most of the 3 million members of your Muslim organization, would they be more amenable to the Osama Bin Laden version of islam?
IWDM:
I won't say to his friends... Who knows his version of Islam? We don't know it. They would have been influenced by his popularity, that's now been given to him because he is charged with being the mastermind of the attack upon our country. They would have been influenced by it. And I think many of them, if not 50% or more would have seen him as a hope for Islam. Because that's the tendency for most of the Muslims of the world. The cost of that damaged psyche now, I mentioned to you early, how probably would have [caused them an edge and it causes us all the troubles, practically and maybe correctly. The cost of that damaged Muslim psyche, most of the Muslims of the world are desperately waiting to see who is going to be our deliverer? Who is going to champion our cause? And so when someone comes up and presented to them direct and perfect, they [suspect the rest impressed inaudible 00:17:46] and they want to [blissfully inaudible 00:17:50] conditioning, a bad experience and hurt from the past that they talked to them.
IWDM:
So right away, they wanted to reject the news coming from the West. So these are not going to read that news, they're going to read the news coming from Muslim media. And I would say the majority would have been inclined to see America as the wrongdoer and find some ways to cover or ignore all the wrongs that had been shot [inaudible 00:18:33] Osama Bin Laden.
S1:
Am I incorrect in this analysis? Had you gone along and in effect turned over your community to an outside force when you were asked to do so, would America today not be a very different place? And would you have not, according to your own words, I'm not qualified to speak for you, or would you have not through your capitulation to the other force had created a fifth column of black people in the United States who now would be ready to act against their own country?
IWDM:
Clearly, yes. Because most of the [inaudible 00:19:19] are fooled as presented by our leaders at this time, they do not tend to welcome strangers to embrace the great ideas of this nation or the rest of the world. And if we had been influenced to accept their way of thinking, I doubt that our following would be patriotic in any degree.
S1:
Is there anything in the Quran that justifies, no matter what America's foreign policy is, whether one agrees or disagrees with it, and G-d knows America's foreign policy, has done a lot of bad things. It's done a lot of good things but it's done a lot of bad things. No matter what America's association is with Israel, no matter what America believes, it there any justification according to the Quran for the terrorist attack that America suffered on September the 11th, 2001?
IWDM:
The answer is no, there's no justification for any Muslim to kill innocent people to get at the guilty ones. That's against Islam. You don't kill the innocent to get the guilty. Or those you think are guilty.
S1:
What does this do for an American Muslim psychologically? Being a human being and American Muslim is no different from an American Christian [crosstalk 00:21:10] or an American Jew. You see people jump from a building that's 70 stories high to avoid burning to death. And then in absolute desperation flap their arms trying to fly. It moves one to tears and it hurts. But aside from that, I'm not an American Muslim but if I were an American Muslim, I then would have to say the people who did this are called members of my faith. What does this do to the Muslim inside? Who is an American, who's a good American and most American Muslims are good Americans. What does this do psychologically?
IWDM:
I was in Washington and when I heard of what had happened, immediately I felt hurt, frightened, horrified. I never thought of those persons as Muslims and I will never be able to think of them as Muslims.
S1:
You mean the person who perpetrated?
IWDM:
The person who actually carried out that horrible thing.
S1:
I think in one of the handbooks or the handbook that was found that those men brought with them, it instructed them to live in America, cut off the beard, don't wear long white shirts, do not associate with other Muslims, do not go to the mosque, do not pray, consult with women, live like other Americans. The night before some of them were out allegedly ordering prostitutes to get them to their hotel room, drinking whiskey. That doesn't sound like a Muslim to me.
IWDM:
No, not at all.
S1:
How could you die in the name of Allah and then offend Allah with your very conduct?
IWDM:
Even the most warped minded Muslim, who thinks himself to be a Muslim, couldn't have done that. Couldn't have ordered prostitutes and drank liquor.
S1:
What did you tell-
IWDM:
Indoctrination had killed their religion. [crosstalk 00:23:30] Indoctrination pushed the religion out of their minds.
S1:
By the time they became terrorists, they were no longer Muslims?
IWDM:
They were no longer Muslims. Conscious Muslims. [Crosstalk 00:23:37].
S1:
If they weren't Muslims what would you call them?
IWDM:
Instruments of terror.
S1:
Will Allah accept an instrument of terror in paradise?
IWDM:
No indeed, according to our religion, they have done the thing that's unforgivable. They will never have the paradise. And I know what some of them are told that they're going to straight to paradise because they're doing the acts of the Sahid. They're martyrs.
S1:
This wouldn't be the first religion to be hijacked. Adolf Hitler was a Christian and his inner circle were Christian so [crosstalk 00:24:24 Ku Klux Klan] and so Osama Bin Laden is more like Adolf Hitler than he is like a good Muslim.
IWDM:
Since he's the mastermind behind it all.
S1:
Of course, assuming that he is guilty and that those people did what they were charged with doing, then whoever did that, let's put it this way. Whoever masterminded it, whoever financed it, whoever carried it out, if they were Muslim are more like Adolf Hitler than they are a Muslim.
S1:
So we're fighting evil.
IWDM:
Yes we are. And something else president Bush said that I agree with very strongly and he really touched my heart when he said this. He said, "This is an attack upon our freedom."
S1:
I thank you very much for being with me on this program.
Speaker 1:
Tony Brown Productions produces this program and is solely responsible for its content. I'm Joe West, CEO of WNW Society. All of us at WNW support Tony Brown's Journal and Public Television. Tony Brown's Journal is brought to you in part by the Office of National Drug Control Policy in the partnership.


