04/09/2008
IWDM Study Library
Sociology of Religion 
Duke University 
Durham NC

By Imam W. Deen Mohammed
W. Deen Muhammad: I just gave you one example, because you don't have enough time. If I would explain all this to you, you would have to be as serious as I am about hearing it.
[laughter]
W. Deen Muhammad: They will tell you when I first came into leadership on a Sunday, I will start with the sun shining, in the late afternoon with the sun shining, and they will tell you once, only once this happened. It was sunrise time. Sun was rising, the day was breaking and they will-- can you imagine them?. For us, it's powerful magnetism. He was right. They were still there. I was still holding them in the morning. Some of you all witnessed this [unintelligible 00:00:47] I was still holding them. They were still there, and I feel so sorry when it dawned on me what had happened. I said, "Boy, I know this people are hurting and all cramped."
[laughter]
W. Deen Muhammad: Too much pressure on their brain. I shouldn't have done this. I regretted it later, but they survived.
[laughter]
W. Deen Muhammad: Some of them have brain damage, but most of them--
[laughter]
W. Deen Muhammad: When I became the leader, I said, I know how to change this thing. I said we have been put in a controlled environment that's controlled by language. What I have to do is form a new language and have it also mystical or rooted in myth. That's what I did. I even created some of my own myth, I added it to it. I came from world myth, but I created some myth. I even gave him the name, I remember I was talking once. I said the tribe of- pardon me. I said there were people and they were lost in Africa. They finally got a leader to help them get their mind straight. They were called the tribe of Shaboot. [unintelligible 00:02:09] [laughs]
So I created these stories, and it held them. It really held them. It worked. I've created it to finally to wean them off of that. Give them a new language environment, and have it point more sensibly toward reality. That's what I did, and it worked. My father gave me a lot of help, but you have to find it in his teaching, a lot of help. He wants his ministers who were at the table every Sunday, he would have the national staff that was headquartered in Chicago. He would have them- they had to come to the dinner, or every Sunday, for a table talk, and for him to iron out problems.
There were problems for the temple, for the believers, his following. One day, one Sunday, one of the ministers at the table- I had spoke that Sunday. I was not the head minister, but I was a minister that was given special privileges, and the Hon. Elijah Muhammad would tell the head minister there, he said, "My son is there, don't you take up all the time." He said, "I want him to speak." Anyway, one of the ministers after I had been the main speaker on this Sunday, he said, "Dear holy apostle," my father was like the messenger of G-d, and the apostle for Mr. Fard, who was called G-d or like Jesus Christ, called G-d in the person or in the flesh.
Yes, thank you. He said, "Dear holy apostle, your son doesn't teach like we teach." My father said, "Yes, I know, brother." Say, "Well, he won't teach the Bible like we do." I know you all have a lot of questions now. He was teaching the Bible? [laughs] He was coming from the Bible, and using the Bible like most black religion is using the Bible to support the idea that we are the oppressed people of G-d, like the Hebrews were, and G-d is our deliverer. It fit, it worked out pretty well. Anyway, he said, "My son is not going to preach the Bible. He's going to teach the Quran."
I had a lot of help from my father, from Mr. Fard, who told my father and my mother, said, "When he's born," I'm not born yet. He's guessing that it's going to be a boy. He says, "When the child is born, promise me you're going to give him my name." Exact words of our father and mother to me. My sister and my older brother, they were old enough to witness all this. They remind me too that you know you got the savior’s name, when they thought I was straying. Not straying into sin, but just straying from those ideas. They would suspect that I'm giving too much time to the world or to my friends and my Christian friends, but I was a normal boy. [laughs]
Anyway, my father and his teachers made me very unique among the following, or in the following of the honorable Elijah Muhammad, by saying that I have the name of our savior, and that the savior asked my father and mother to not only give me my name, and said, "Raise him to help us in this work." And it all came to pass. Self-fulfilling prophecy or whatever, it happened. [laughs]
Moderator: We have to let you get to your next meeting. And let the students-[crosstalk]
W.Deen Muhammad: Thank you.
Moderator: -get to their next class. Join me in thanking [inaudible 00:06:21] 
[applause]
W.Deen Muhammad: Thank you.
[audio cut]
Moderator: Shall we begin?
W.Deen Muhammad: Yes.
Moderator: We already have begun.
W.Deen Muhammad: You want me to start now?
Moderator: Let me introduce you. I'm honored to welcome here, Imam W. Deen Muhammad. Before I introduce him, I want to say a special thanks to Imam Abdul Wahid, who's a Muslim Chaplin here at Duke and was really the person who made this possible, initiated this visit and organized it and facilitated it. Thank you, Abdul, for making this possible. Imam Muhammad is, of course, a Muslim leader. He's currently the director of an organization called The Mosque Cares. He was, of course, the leader of the Nation of Islam during a pivotal time in its history.
In addition to his wisdom about the religion of Islam, he also has just a unique perspective, I think, on some of the issues that we've been talking about in this class. Issues of change in religion. He led the Nation of Islam through some very significant changes as an organization and as a movement. The issues of religious conflict. He's really has a unique perspective on American religion, in addition to Islam. I'm personally thrilled to have him here with us today for some time. Imam Muhammad agreed to say a few words to begin, and he also- I think it's okay to then just open up for questions after a few minutes.
W.Deen Muhammad: Certainly. You say a few minutes, someone told me that I should give my spiritual journey. Now I get it correct from you.
Moderator: Can you do it in 10 minutes?
[laughter]
W.Deen Muhammad: Yes.
Moderator: Okay. The 10-minute version would be great and then we can open it up for some conversation. 
W.Deen Muhammad: All right. We always begin with Bismillah, ar-Rahman, ar-Rahim. It means in English, with G-d's name, the Merciful benefactor, the Merciful Redeemer, or as most immigrant Muslims give it translation, the beneficence, the merciful. We begin with remembering G-d. It all started in Detroit, Michigan, called the Motor City. This man that started it, he was not from America. His name was Fard, but they spelled F-A-R-D, and you will pronounce it Fard. F-A-R-D simply means a person whose name is not known. His real name is not known. That's what it means. Like we say John Doe or whatever, somebody not known.
When he came to Detroit, he came in his own planned role. I don't think he was that serious about the role he played, but he came in the role of Jesus Christ, the second coming of Jesus Christ, but coming to black folks, everything that was made black. We have been called the black cult by the press, a black cult. Father Divine was already teaching something about black G-ds and- he was making Jesus black, Father. Divine. A Christian preaching, big Christian preacher in Detroit, Michigan. Then also in that environment, time to give you the environment first that he came into. In that environment at that time in 1930, '31, '33, '34, he left. There was also Drew Ali. Drew Ali was also a black man, African American as we say now, who thought he was preaching Islam. I don't know. Perhaps he didn't think he was preaching that. But he was preaching a brand of Islam that was strange too also. He didn't have the Quran of the Muslims. He gave his followers a little pamphlet like that.
Maybe 50 pages, and he called it the Quran. He called it the Quran, but it was not the Quran. They call themselves Muslims, and they trace their ancestry back to the Moors of Africa. There were also in Detroit, Michigan, poor area or the slums of Detroit. Decent people, they were very poor, but they were very decent minded, and they were from the church. They were a unique group, too. They were black Masons, some of them, and also Eastern Star. Eastern star, I don't know if you know it, but this is the females who belong to the same kind of idea like the black Masons. Fard, as I said, he came in the role of the savior, of Jesus Christ, or the son of man. He always mention himself as the son of man.
My father, who became his student, and he placed him in charge of the following. When he went back after about three years, when he left the states and went back home or went somewhere, we don't know exactly. I suspect he went to Fiji Islands, but we don't know that. Anyway, I'm sure he influenced my father to rent an apartment on the second floor of a house that was on Yemen street. I was born in that house on Yemen street, in that apartment. I have to say a little bit about the Yemen street, him selecting that place. Understand that he's a guy that's hiding what he's doing. He's doing something and hiding what he's doing.
My father always said- my father with the Bible, son of a preacher. My father's father, his name was William Poole and he had his own small congregation of Christians followers in Georgia where my father was born and mother was born. I'm sure Fard chose the street, to have my father live on this street for a reason. Even now, the Yemenites are not an accepted people. The northern Yemens are kind of dominating the southern Yemens. It is believed that the Yemenites had a great civilization at one time. We believe that Sheba was their leader. Queen Sheba was the leader of the Yemenites. You know the story of Solomon and Sheba.
Continuing now, also there are a lot of contradictions, and these papers called Supreme Wisdom, The Supreme Wisdom of the Nation of Islam. These papers that were given by Mr. Fard to my father, Elijah Muhammad, for him to preach to all the black people that he could attract from America, from Christian churches. So these Supreme Wisdom papers, you could see anybody that wasn't converted to the religion in the magical way that Mr. Fard was converting them. He had some magic, he has some powerful magic. He called it magnetism. The black person who's dissatisfied, and mind you, he came in the worst part of Detroit, so he came where he knew people were having a bad time.
He was looking for the discontent, those who were discontented, who was not satisfied to be identified as Americans or as citizens of America. They didn't feel they had citizenship. He came to attract them. Those were the discontents. If you were discontented and somebody's saying everything you like, especially put down like a lot of blacks were put down at that time, and some feel they are put down now, and I think we're putting ourselves down now. When you're dissatisfied, you put down, and you're dissatisfied, you get somebody to come and compliment you. You've been called black so much, and nigger, and black so much, you don't even like the term black. Someone call you black from your own black community, you want to fight them.
That was that was this sensitivity at that time. If you want to get a fight with any black person, just call them black. Even call them nappy head, this will almost get you into a fight. [laughs] But black, sure, will right away. The things that protruded out on those papers as contradicted- are many. I don't have time. In fact, my time is going out right now. Are many. I'm just going to mention those that caught my attention and disturbed me as a child, even as a child. One was the black man is G-d, and the black man is all righteous. Now we know that ain't true. Right away, you know, what in the world is this? Where's this coming from?
The black man is G-d. The black man is all righteous. The superior people is not the white man, white race, but the black race. The white race is a race of devils created, or made, pardon me not created, that term is not used. Made or grafted out of black people, by a black scientist who was named Yakub. Yakub in the religion of Islam is Jacob, Jacob is a prophet. When you read the Quran, there's nothing like that about Jacob or Yakub in the Quran. Lastly, I want to share with you how I started to break with the idea. I recall being left at home by my father. We had the first house we ever owned in Chicago, or ever own, period, was a frame house 6116 in Michigan, south side of Chicago.
My father was coming down the steps. Sometime I would be up late doing my homework. I believe it was about almost ten o'clock at night. That's the time that the meeting at the temple was adjourned, ten o'clock, eight to ten. He's now- he's leaving. It's about ten o'clock, and he's leaving the house, and my mother was following him, and they'll dressed up like they are dressed up for Sunday meeting. He says, "Son, your mother and I have to go to take care of some business." Wednesday night, temple night, Wednesday night at the temple. "We're going to be gone for some time, and we want you to stay here with the house." I accepted, I was a little afraid because at night time it's get-- Night time I'm a little afraid to be there. 
We were never left at home by ourselves. I had sisters and brothers. Some of them had gone off, got married, but I still had maybe three- I think it was three or four brothers and one sister. They were not at home. They were also out for some reason. I can't even recall the reason they were out. But I'm sure it was something that my father and mother accepted, approved of. I'm there in the house by myself. He leaves. I'm finished my homework, and I'm getting very sleepy, and I'm tired. There was a time in the season when the nights got very cool. The night is very cool now and the house is starting to talk to me. I'm downstairs, upstairs is talking, and I'm hearing noise. After a whilel I'm hearing sounds in the basement. They sound like a group of people are having some kind of a party down there. They talking and laughing. I'm hearing all these things, and I'm afraid. I had to go down and check the basement, it was so real, I had to go down and check the basement. I went down and check- afraid, very afraid, I went down to check the basement-- I don't have the time to tell you what I saw.
I saw images of a big table down in the basement and images of people that look so old, mostly men, but I think a couple of women was at the table. They look so old. If I did that, dust the floor from them. That's how they look. They look old and dusty. White dust on them. This is the actual picture I saw. I was told not to believe in anything but materialism and material reality. We didn't even believe in a spiritual life other than the life we have on this earth now. I think some Jews, a sect of Jews also believe the same. This is not nothing new. I think Fard, he knew all that, and he put all these strange things in our life and in our mind.
To overcrowd our mind, and to load it with things that didn't agree, didn't jell, so that it would pressure us as we got more education. It would pressure us to wonder why was this done to us. To either leave it just abruptly, just leave it. Say, hey, I'm through with this. Or say the man was good man, I believe he came to help us. Let me see, why did he do this? Let me see if I can find some answers in what he did. That was my situation, and I believe after differing with those teachings, I met many of our members in the following of the honorable Elijah Muhammad, and I know that they too, they overlook those things, but they stayed with it because they thought that it did- it was sincere, and it promised us a better future as a people in America and in the world.
I'm going to conclude with what I actually did that I believe started me on my spiritual journey. I'm in the house, we didn't pray Salat, we didn't do Salat. Some of you I know you're aware of our religion. We didn't do Salat. That's the formal way of praying for Muslims throughout the world. We only did Dua and this is not prayer. This is not prayer. We call it prayer, but this is not prayer. This is prayer only in another religion. In some other religion, this is prayer. In our religion this is Dua, this is not prayer. Dua means calling on G-d, personal individual just calling on G-d. That's all that, that's what that is. It's called Dua. I was afraid to go to bed. So I put my hands up like this. I said, "Oh Allah, If I'm not seeing you correctly, will you please help me see you correctly?" And I said ameen. We say ameen. Even back then, we didn't say amen, but it's the same as amen.
I have told you a little something that I think will help you see that we were certainly a strange creation in America. As we have made a long journey and G-d has been with us, we made a long journey out of the maze of that esoteric and symbolic and even satirical language and teachings environment. It was a word environment to contain us that would be so attractive to a people that didn't know themselves and didn't know their past and didn't know why they were put down, like they will put down in the United States of America. It was prepared for us so we could work our way out of that maze. As I said, G-d was with us, obviously, and we did work ourselves out of it into the mainstream of Muslim life and American in the world.
Moderator: Thank you so much.
W.Deen Muhammad: I took longer than that.
Moderator: That's okay.
W.Deen Muhammad: But I think I cut the question and I answers down. [crosstalk] I cut the time for questions and answers. But how can you answer the question-- I don't know what kind of question they'd come up with.
Moderator: Well, shall we see?
W.Deen Muhammad: Yes.
[laughter]
W.Deen Muhammad: It's just so dark in here now.
[laughter].
Moderator: Who has a question? [unintelligible 00:25:16] 
Student 1: Barack Obama in his speech a couple weeks ago on race talked about how Sunday morning is the most segregated hour of American life for American [unintelligible 00:25:27]. I was wondering if you could talk about whether it's possible to truly desegregate religion? If so, how?
W.Deen Muhammad: Is it possible that--?
Student 1: To desegregate religion? I know you've made strides towards doing that. I was wondering if it's possible to do that fully, and if so, how?
W.Deen Muhammad: One word I'm not hearing, I'm not hearing good enough.
Moderator: To disegregate- to bring [crosstalk] together. [crosstalk] To bring together.
W.Deen Muhammad: Is it possible?
Student 1: To bring together blacks and whites or Asians and Latinos into a religion?
W. Deen Muhammad: Yes. Obama's attracting blacks, whites, Latinos, he's attracting all of them. You mean religion, right? It's going to be difficult, very difficult in my opinion, and it's because whether we admit it or not, white people have a white church, and the black people resented that and resented how they where put down, so black people formed the black church. I'm talking about Christians, all black Christians. They call it the black church, that's what they call it. I think it's going to be very difficult. I do strongly believe that Obama bringing people together and identifying not as a black man but as an American citizen. I think his rise, political rise, even if he doesn't make it to the presidency, which I strongly believe he will, because he's got too many strong people, white people and others behind him.
If we don't look at him as one campaigning for the presidency of the United States, and just see how he have attracted whites and Latinos and blacks and everybody, that is affecting blacks in America. In time, I think it's going to affect blacks in Africa and all over the world. The history of, I'm sorry for taking all this time, but the history of black and white in America, blacks and whites in America, is a powerful history. He hinted that the roots of racism go way back. I know the roots of racism go back to ancient cultures and the myths and mythology of the world. What contributed to us being separated as whites and blacks, and having this serious problem as whites and blacks, is belief that G-d made us this way, and intended it this way, and that G-d said the black man should be put down.
You know how some religious, small religious groups, Christian groups have read into the story of Noah and his three sons an idea that supports white supremacy and slavery for blacks. Ham, maybe you all don’t know the story, I got to make sure you know the story. Ham had three sons. I mean, Noah had three sons. One of his sons was Ham. Ham was the one who showed a silly mind, showed that he had a silly mind. He saw the nakedness of his father, Noah, and his father was drunk. This is Bible. He laughed at his father. His other two brothers didn't. One was disgusted, he turned away. And one, the ideal son, the perfect son, the real loving son, he saw his father like that, and he covered his father. He put a cover over his father. But Ham laughed. That's the story in the Bible, and says the curse didn't fall directly on Ham in the Bible, say Ham is Egypt. The curse didn't fall directly on Ham, but on the descendants of Ham. I don't know. I can't understand how the Canaanites are the descendants of Ham, but they're not the genetic descendants of Ham. You have to see it in the political history, and they are the descendants of Ham. Anyway, that message reach us more than it reached white folk. They saw that that message would reach black people in America. We heard that we were called the children of Ham. That's what we were called, the children of Ham, and that we were cursed- the curse didn't fall directly on Ham. It fell on the descendants of Ham or the children of Ham called Canaanites.
We were the children of Ham, and the Bible says they were cursed by G-d to be servants of their brothers, that's the white people. That's how we understood it, to be serving the white people. The Bible says to cut wood, carry water to them, and et cetera, do this little cheap jobs of service. That's in the Bible. I know, as a student of religion now, I know for a long time, I know that you're not supposed to read that story like that. But why is it put like that? Why is it like that in the Bible? I know when I first read it like that. I know the three sons of Noah are not even flesh. They are not flesh, they're dispositions in the spirit and soul of human beings. All the family of man have these three figures in our soul. I think that's too much I've said, but I think I had to say it. [laughs]
Moderator: Another.
Student 2: Bismillah rahmani rahim. Thank you for coming. Your reaction to Archbishop [unintelligible 00:32:15] 
W.Deen Muhammad: My hearing is not the best.
Student 2: I was wondering your reaction to Rowan Williams' comments regarding Sharia in Great Britain.
W.Deen Muhammad: In Great Britain? Yes. You know there are a lot of problems, and we're going to have problems like that. People who have problems, they're always looking for, - if it’s their problems, they are looking for it to not be their problem, and they want to blame somebody up. I know a little something about how Muslims have increased their numbers in Great Britain. Those citizens, white citizens, the British people, who are suffering unemployment, conditions not so good. They're looking for somebody to point the finger at relieve themselves.
So they are pointing at Muslims who come in recently. I think if they themselves had better situation, I think they would be less moved or inclined to take it out on Muslims. In America, we were called when the war with the Japanese was going on, we were called black Japs. They say because we didn't accept America and Christianity, they called us black Japs. That's to make us be the enemies of America and expose now to hatred. Many of us thought we might get killed. It was very dangerous for us during World War II at that time. I think the situation for Muslims in Britain is pretty much like the situations of blacks in America, in the bad times for us in this country.
Similar citizens who suffer more, they will be the ones to quickly say why are they here? Who are these people? And to charge you with being troublemakers and et cetera. I think that has a lot to do with it, with the problem there. Did I satisfy your question? Or if it's not, you've asked me something, maybe you could ask me something I'll respond to it.[crosstalk]
Student 2: [crosstalk] follow up question is given the climate of America right now, do you think that that [unintelligible 00:35:11] would become an issue?
W.Deen Muhammad: Do I think?
Student 2: That implementing some form of Sharia into American government [crosstalk].
W.Deen Muhammad: It's possible. In fact, we are doing it. Do you know the [unintelligible 00:35:26]? All the [unintelligible 00:35:28] formed according to the geography and the nature of the environment for humans living and socializing and practicing their religion at that time. That's what form those [unintelligible 00:35:44] and they differ, they are different. They're not the same. They are the same as for our belief in G-d, Allah, and belief in Muhammad. The Sahabs the companions of the Prophet and all that, and the rituals, all that pretty much the same, but they're even the rituals may be different somewhat.
The Sharia's certainly different. Sharia is the way of the law. I feel very much afraid for us to just adopt one of these major schools, or even the Wahhabi school in Saudi Arabia. I feel very much afraid of that. I think those schools form naturally, according to the demands of the environment. The geography and the environment, and that's the way a school should form in America. That's the way Sharia should form in Britain.
Moderator: May I ask you a question? I wonder if you could tell us a little bit when you became leader of Nation of Islam, you went through a series of very fundamental changes in a lot of ways. Could you talk a little bit about that, about those changes and why you thought they were necessary? Can you tell us a little bit about that?
W. Deen Muhammad: Yes. My father had me into court, like he did at Wednesday night. I didn't tell you that Wednesday night was court night. [chuckles] Somebody had done something against the teachings of my father, and they were going to be put on trial. Anyway, my father had me on trial twice. He tried me for saying- I was reported to have said Mr. Fard is not G-d. The first time, he was really emotionally upset. He said, "How can you think like that? How can you say that when you know your father was in the street?" Mind you, when he came, that was the hard days, right at the time of the depression.
Depression wasn't over, 1930, '31, '33. He said, "How can you think that, and you know your father was a poor, drunk on the streets, and it was our savior that dignified us and brought me to be the man and leader I am? How can you say that? Ungrateful." He was really upset. I said, "Daddy," I said, "You led me to disagree with that." He looked at me, at least I changed his mood.
[laughter]
W. Deen Muhammad: He didn’t say anything more about that, and I didn't carry it further. I knew he would know right away what I was referring to because there are a lot of rational teachings in his teaching also. When you told me to be truthful, don't be a liar, to be righteous, and all that teaching was strong enough to make me differ with it. When I became leader in 1975, I knew I had a lot of support in his teachings. Though it looked like it all was condemning me, I should be killed as a brother to say you hypocrite, you should be killed, and believe me, I had people threaten my life. I got terrible calls. They would come- I lived in an apartment, and they would come in between the houses. The house I lived in was really was an apartment building. The apartment building I lived in the house next door, and they will come in late at night, howling, "You hypocrites, you're going to get it." One night gunfire, just to scare me, gunfire. In fact, a two nights gunfire. One night I'm coming home late. I'm crossing the street to get on the side of the street where I was living, and I see a car looking suspicious. I could see figures in it, but they have the lights off. As I stepped into the street, I sensed that that car was going try to do something. I stepped into the street, they turned the headlights on, and headed towards me, speeding towards me, like they were going kill me. I didn't believe it. G-d has been protecting me. I didn't know it, but G-d was protecting me. I didn't believe it so something in me said don't get afraid and don't run, just go normally across the street.
When they got close to me, they hit their brakes and went around me, didn't hit me. I looked quickly to see if I could see the license plate number. They had the lights off. Quickly, they turned the lights off so I couldn't see the license plate. Once I came in the house and a gun was fired a distance away from me down the street I lived on Wabash I saw a spark, so it must have pointed down. I saw a spark on the street. It must have been from that gunfire. When I become the leader, I knew I have a lot of support from Mr. Fard who named me, said- named me after him. My name Wallace D was one of the names aliases he used, Wallace D, and W. D., he was often referred to as W.D Fard. When I was a boy, they didn't call me Wallace D, they called me W.D, even my mother.
"W.D." But that didn't last long. I was about 15 or 16 they start calling me Wallace. Now I'm knowing all this, I know I have support, and the honorable Elijah Muhammad said a lot of things. He said, "Well, what we have will last for maybe 500 years." He said, "But there will be a change coming one day, and the religion as we know it won't be anymore." Say, "Maybe the next one--," I'm talking about leaders in the future. The next one for us, not for everybody, just for this particular group, this peculiar group. The religious group. He said the next one may not accept any of what we have with us. That's a big help. If you're curious, if you're suspicious, and curious. So that’s a big help.
[00:42:56] [END OF AUDIO]


