01/16/1988
IWDM Study Library
Interview-Major Themes 
Pt 1

By Imam W. Deen Mohammed
[music]
Imam Shuaibe: Audhu billahi min al-shaitan ir-rajim. Bismillaahir Rahmaanir Raheem. Ash-hadu alla ilaha illallah, wa ash-hadu anna Muhammadar-Rasulullah. With the name Allah most gracious, most merciful, I bear open testimony without reservation, there is nothing worthy of worship except Allah and I bear open testimony without reservation that Muhammad to whom the Quran was revealed 1400 years ago is His slave, servant, and his messenger. Dear beloved brothers and sisters, I greet you in the words of peace which means may the peace that only Allah gives be with you. As-Salaam-Alaikum.
Thank you for joining us on the Muslim Journal. I'm Imam Faheem Shuaibe. I'll be your host. We are honored and happy and we are blessed to have with us our very special guest this evening, Imam W. Deen Mohammed. A noted leader and scholar of the Islamic religion for America and an international Islamic community. We pray Allah that we will be able to share with you in our brief conversation this evening some words of wisdom and some insight that would help improve the quality of your life as it is always our desire and our hope that we will be able to share with you those kinds of insights.
I'm quite certain with our very special guest which we speak to you about all the time being with us here today we will be in a better position to do that this evening because you'll be able to hear it live and direct. Firstly, I would like to welcome our very special guests and thank him very much for being with us here this evening.
Imam Mohammed: Thank you, Imam. Thank you very much.
Imam Shuaibe: As-Salaam-Alaikum.
Imam Mohammed: Alaikum As-Salaam.
Imam Shuaibe: What we're going do, I'll begin right away with just talking about some of the major themes that you have been addressing throughout 1987. I'll name them as they stand out in my mind and we'll proceed from there. The role of the individual in the society. The sacred life connections and most recently the Islamic formula for a successful life.
I have been in attendance in a couple of the shura conferences that were sponsored by immigrant Muslim communities where you were also invited to address concerns that affected or that issues facing Muslims in America today. We want to touch on some of those themes during the course of this interview. Let's begin with the theme about the role of the individual in society. In fact, when you brought that out to us in the Muslim Journal some people were fortunate to be there live, but in the Muslim Journal, it was something of an insight to you. It was something of a transition. You saying that the focus is on the individual as opposed to an organized group. Can you elaborate on that for us?
Imam Mohammed: Yes. In religion, that is in the what is called the Abrahamic religions, and in most of the great religions, I would say, the idea of man, the concept of man begins with man being created by the creator himself. Not by a mother or father or mother or environment or anything but by the creator himself. That fine creature that G-d creates he gives him a role in the world that He created. G-d gave man a role in the world He created. That role is to be a responsible creature. A responsible creature for everything in his environment.
The scripture as you know the Quran puts it this way. That he made man to be Khalifa, to be a custodian on earth serving G-d. Not to think of himself as an owner of what G-d has created but as a trustee given the freedom to use and utilize all that G-d had made available to him. The concept is so great, so big until we really have to kind of reduce it to make it attractive to most of us today. Adam in mythology is believed to have been a man at least 60 feet tall and his footprint I can't recall but if he had huge feet in mythology.
I would say that if we would accept the responsibility that G-d gave Adam, we would have to be giant creatures at least in our imagination, in our courage et cetera because G-d said to the man that He created that He had made everything to be of service to that man. That He had created that man with intelligence and with the nature and ability to utilize everything in that environment that G-d created for him.
Now, the dynamic aggressive intellect of man has been doing just that. We trace man in history back to a time when we say he was primitive. Not that we agree with that idea but we have to acknowledge history. History shows us in evolution, a progressive line, that man has come from smaller roles to bigger roles. G-d when He made the man, He didn't say that the man now at this time could assume all that responsibility. In fact, the man was tempted by Satan, the voice of the devil.
The devil caused the man to be disillusioned. The devil was making boasts that this man ain't fit for the great role and responsibility that G-d gave him. G-d says when I have breathed into him of my breath. Though He had created the man fulfilling that great role was a time yet in the future. He says, "When I have breathed into him of my breath then you bow, you submit to the role that I am giving him." Today if we apply the wisdom in that concept to ourselves individually.
I may be managing nothing but myself. I may be managing a family. I may be managing a family business. Whatever my responsibilities are I should see myself as a creature made by G-d to be responsible for the things that are in my charge. The space that is in my charge. Maybe I can't manage the space of the universe that G-d showed to Adam but at least I can make an effort to manage the space that is in my home, the space that is in my apartment, the space that I am responsible for on the job, the space wherever I am.
If I'm occupying a seat on a public transportation or whatever situation I'm in I should be responsible in that situation. I think that's the great message of man's role. If we want to grow then we should grow into that great responsibility that G-d gave Adam which represents the potential that man has, the ability to really assume responsibility for everything in the open environment.
Imam Shuaibe: Thank you very much. Brother Imam in listening to you, I remember hearing that the main sign of truth is consistency. I heard you mention that at one time. In just that brief there, I could hear a whole history of things that you've been talking to us about for some time. One of the things is that you said the individual succeeds to the extent that he's willing to accept responsibly. When you look at an individual who doesn't want to accept responsibility, there's no way to succeed.
Imam Mohammed: No, it's not.
Imam Shuaibe: When you begin to accept the responsibility you begin to succeed. Quran and Hadith is all in your voice. Let's move to the other, you were mentioning that you're showing that this is like an evolution that the individual has to go through some kind of a transition and evolution. Can we very quickly touch on how you feel in retrospect the transition from who we were, the Nation of Islam, to who we are now as identified as an international community of Muslims with a specific responsibility here in America and that evolution. Is there a relationship between our own development as a community accepting Al-Islam and the image of that growing individual?
Imam Mohammed: I will attempt to respond. I see it this way. In that makeup of the Nation of Islam, the man of the Nation of Islam. I say so-called Nation of Islam because actually the term really includes all Muslims on this earth. We're talking about really now what's called the Black Muslims or the followers of the Hon. Elijah Muhammad. Now in that time, the makeup of the man and the woman when I say man, the makeup of the member of that community was this. It was one dominated by self-concerns. Concerns for self. The appeal was made to self and it was natural.
Imam Shuaibe: Are you saying in an ethnic sense?
Imam Mohammed: Yes. For the race, to the black man. I'm saying that also that it was natural that people who were once enslaved in this country and then freed but denied equal opportunity in this country, denied equal citizenship in this country, discriminated against, segregated and suffered Jim Crow and terrorism from white bigots, racists in this country. It was natural that we would be more apt to listen to someone who was speaking to our own personal interest, private and personal interest than someone who would appeal to us to serve the world.
Step one was personal interests. Personal interests because the abused creature needed to heal.
Step two is personal responsibility. Personal responsibility in the light of scripture goes further than what that expression suggests to us. Personal responsibility as we said earlier that Adam was made a responsible preacher in the whole environment. That was his personal responsibility at that time.
My personal responsibility begins with myself but whatever I'm immediately involved with if I'm a member of the household that's my first responsibility. If I'm a member of the neighborhood, that becomes my responsibility whether I call it personal or not, it's responsibility on me as an individual, you see?
Imam Shuaibe: Your personal responsibility becomes a duty at some point in time. It's something that you owe to the environment.
Imam Mohammed: Yes. It extends outwards and when it goes so far we stop calling it personal responsibility but we still individually charged. I've changed it from personal I'm using the expression individual. That's my individual responsibility. I have an individual responsibility in that interest or in that concern. I'm also a citizen of Chicago. I'm from Chicago. I'm a citizen of Chicago. I'm responsible as a citizen of Chicago. I'm also a citizen of the United States.
Imam Shuaibe: It's like with every identity there's a responsibility.
Imam Mohammed: Certainly. I'm also a citizen of the world. I'm a human being born on earth. I'm a creature of this earth with all other creatures. That's a transition. The best way I can put it right here in the little time that we have.
Imam Shuaibe: Individuals seeing their relationship to reality in that sense.
Imam Mohammed: Yes. The growing, expanding, extending responsibility of the individual. We couldn't see that when we were just full of sores and hurts and wounds.
Imam Shuaibe: Thank you very much. In fact, that alone is a complete subject because I hear the Hadith where it say each one of you is a [unintelligible 00:14:43] with something in your charge I heard that in both of your answers throughout the [unintelligible 00:14:50] there's just so much to be said about it. Let's go to the next point. I believe the next major thing after the individual and it occurred maybe after this past summer. The sacred life connection. What was your object? What point were you working to make during that series?
Imam Mohammed: The word sacred is a serious word. It's one of the few words that haven't been corrupted by popular language or by popular abuse of language. Even holy has been hurt, the expression holy. Sacred for some reason it has escaped abusive usage. I chose the word because it is true and because I thought it was the safest word to use. Sacred life connection, the intent is that we take very serious the resources that G-d gave us.
We are born of our mother and our father of our ancestors but G-d created the world and we are creatures of the universe. We are creatures of matter. We are creatures in the context of all creatures really. G-d created all the creatures and my intelligence, my affections, my spirit, my courage, all of this was created by G-d. It develops by using it. It develops a social context and a context with man, from context with my fellow man but it's created by G-d. The potential was not given by my fellow man. The potential was given by G-d.
If we understand that and accept that as first as religious people. If we don't even accept it as religious people if we can just accept that we are creatures created or we are part of the universe and whatever we can be is what we were already. Whatever I can be is what I am, or was already so I shouldn't look down on myself and I shouldn't mistreat myself. I should have the greatest respect for myself. Myself is more important than the Mercedes that I make and buy, or more important than the fine home or a mansion I might be able to secure.
The most precious thing, the most sacred thing is not the things that we give so much attention to but the possibilities in my own creation. The fine senses that G-d has created me with. A sense of appreciation, a sense of devotion, great imagination, creative ability, intuitive instinct, all these things. We are talking about wonderful tools. We are talking about the tools that account for the progress of man for all the modernization the industry and everything. We're talking about the tools.
The tools that are most productive are the tools that G-d have already created us with and all those tools are valuable, are sacred, not only valuable but sacred. When we talk about sacred life connection we're talking about the same thing that the traditional Christian and others are talking about when they are talking about return to traditional values.
Imam Shuaibe: Sacred values.
Imam Mohammed: Yes. They are sacred values. I know Christians agree with me that they are sacred values. We are just using a term maybe a little bit stronger than the Christians have chosen to use in referring to those values. They call them inherent values. They are sacred values. They are values that are sacred. Sacred because G-d created us for those values, made possible those values and not only that, He created us to be motivated, toward an ascent to those values, so they're sacred. Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessing be on him, he said, "Your brother's life is sacred, his blood and his property is sacred." This is nothing new. This is no new language that we're using. It's the language of scripture and the language of our Prophet, peace be upon him.
Imam Shuaibe: Which brings to mind, in terms of these sacred values and the fact that this term was one that seemed to have escaped corruption. Do you see a point in history where we really got out of touch with these sacred or traditional or inherent values? Was there an event that in a large degree that you believe influenced this break with the connection, the sacredness of it? I know that secular society is really whatever in that sense.
Imam Mohammed: Secular is responsible. Yes, it's mostly responsible for it, but secular society really has its creator too. Its creator is materialism, commercialism. Commercialism in the ugly sense of the word, where you capitalize on everything without respect for any principle. All the businessmen are not guilty of that, but enough of them are to be responsible for feeding bad influences in ignorant masses of people. I want to correct that.[crosstalk]
Imam Shuaibe: Innocent masses of people mainly.
Imam Mohammed: No, ignorant, but I don't want to say masses because the influences go higher than the masses. The influences go all the way up to the top. It can be the Senator or his wife or his daughter or his son. It could be the rich man's wife or daughter or son that fall victim to the influences of the materialism. In a materialistic environment, we lose these values.
Imam Shuaibe: You, Inshallah, mentioned going higher, I think you have made a mention about the Pope and his coming over here. He seemed to be trying to get the sheep back in the pen. You didn't say that but I'm saying he seemed to be saying, "Come back from these makeshift religions." Like he was having to address the growing influences of the kind of things that you're talking about. That is so powerful, that it influences the Catholic church, which in fact has been a strong- how do you say, a bastion of controlling its own flock. Now some of its flock is now breaking out of its bounds by the influence or through the influence of the material nature of society.
Imam Mohammed: Yes. That speaks for the seriousness of the problem because many times, the Pope himself has to address the issue that's affecting the Catholic people who are very- if anybody can be called traditionalist, they're the traditionalist.
Imam Shuaibe: Let's go to the third question and that is your most recent lectures have been on Islamic formula for a successful life. What's the kernel of that theme?
Imam Mohammed: The Islamic formula?
Imam Shuaibe: Yes.
Imam Mohammed: The Islamic formula for a successful life is first, obedience to G-d. I think all of us religious people, we begin there. Islamic formula then addresses with equal respect the rational mind of man and also his spiritual side. The Islamic formula for a successful life is to be rationally responsible and morally responsible, they go hand in hand.
Imam Shuaibe: It seems in the two lectures we've heard in Cleveland and in Los Angeles, there seems to be a concern about the way that the nature is described by "trinitarianism" as opposed to that nature or the nature of the human being, which you mentioned earlier, about Adam and the responsible creature that G-d made him. That description in the creed of Christianity versus the creed of Al-Islam, there seems to be a distinction. That seems to be a significant part of that subject too. The way that nature is defined by the two religions.
Imam Mohammed: I hope I satisfy what you're looking for with this response. I don't see the Christian religion itself being responsible for this, but I see an attitude in Christianity being responsible for this, and this difference between the Muslim and the Christian. The typical Christian is apt to judge matters, react to situations and come to even the conclusion upon what they feel in their hearts. That's good, people say, "Well, what's wrong with that?" Well, there's such a thing as a foolish heart. Nat Cole made a song all about it. He sung about a foolish heart. The heart is the beginning of human growth and development, but the intellect is to assist the heart.
As the intellect by experience and work grows, then it should assist the heart.
There comes a time when the heart is in the way of intelligence and you have to say to your heart, "My foolish heart, sit down and let me talk." The intellect has to speak for a while. The Muslim is not apt to respond that way. The Muslim life is a life of balance. The Mizan, the scales, is a life of balance. By balance we mean also a life that guards against extremism. We can become extreme in our sentiments. We could become extreme in our love and affections to the point that we lose the balance. I would say that the Muslim response especially the Muslim who has been converted as a Muslim.
See, many Muslims are converted as Christians. [laughs] Many Muslims are converted as something else, not Muslims. If a Muslim go and hear somebody just preaching fire and brimstone and prepare to go see G-d, prepare to see your maker and sin will send you to hell and all. If a Muslim go and hear that kind of talk from an Imam or a Sheikh or something and he's converted. "I'm converted, I want to make my Kalima, La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah" He makes that, but was that a Muslim conversion, was that an Islamic conversion? No, it wasn't an Islamic conversion. An Islamic conversion is a conversion that requires involvement of the man's intellect. Involvement of his mind, not only his heart.
When a Muslim is converted right, he's not apt to respond emotionally, sentimentally to most questions and most issues as is typical of Christians. Again, I'm saying that's not a knock against Christianity, that's a knock against the trend in Christian society. G-d is love.
Imam Shuaibe: Another word.
Imam Mohammed: Do we begin by saying G-d is love? We begin by saying G-d is beneficent, G-d is merciful, G-d is one. G-d is beneficent. That makes me think. G-d is merciful. That makes me think. Do I need mercy? G-d is love. It's not the same. Whereas one religion emphasizes the beauty of man and the beauty of G-d, the other religion emphasizes the sublimity of G-d and the excellence of man.
Imam Shuaibe: Very good. Brother Imam, we have come to the end of this very wonderful dialogue and the conversation has been very helpful. I think that we may have maybe a minute or two. If there's some idea that you would like to share with our audience directly in person with them for the Bay Area, what would you tell the people in the Bay Area?
Imam Mohammed: We're one people, and we love Christians, and we love Jews, we love man. We even love communist people because they are part of humanity. We love all people, but as the good Christians say, "I love the other creature of G-d, but if you're doing wrong, I don't like what you're doing."
Imam Shuaibe: Thank you very much, Brother Imam. Thank you so much for being with us and we look forward to the next time you are here. We appreciate it so much.
[00:30:40] [END OF AUDIO]

