02/06/2002
IWDM Study Library
How Religion Protects Against Extremes
Duke University

By Imam W. Deen Mohammed
IWDM:
Thank you. Good evening and Peace. Asalaam Alaikum. With G-d's Name Bismillah Ir Rahma Nir Raheem With G-d's Name, The Merciful, The Merciful Benefactor, The Merciful Redeemer. That is how we are supposed to begin any formal thing of interest to us. And it says with G-d's Name who is Merciful and Merciful, twice Merciful. Bismillah Ir Rahma Nir Raheem.The first Mercy is what G-d gives us, when He created us. He created us to be human beings. That was His Mercy to us.
IWDM:
And the second Mercy is that He gave us guidance, revelation. The second Mercy to us. He's Merciful twice. And Muhammad the Prophet, he taught us that surely G-d is Merciful and that obligates us to be Merciful, to be Merciful. Every chapter of our Holy Book begins with those two attributes of G-d, every chapter except one. And it is within that chapter. It is given within that chapter, not the opening, but within that chapter, it's the ninth chapter of Qur'an, that we find does not begin with those two attributes of G-d, but those two attributes of G-d is given within the chapter.
IWDM:
When we read Qur'an, the act of the formal prayer called al Al Fatiha, there comes the second chapter of Qur'an, which begins like this. It says after this after those two attributes that I mentioned of Mercy, it says this Book, there is no guesswork. There's no doubt in it. Guidance for the G-d fearing. So our religion is guidance for the G-d fearing. It's number one.
IWDM:
Then it said also in the Book that this Book cannot be touched except by the purified ones. Purified ones, they have to have hearts that are innocent. That's what it means by purified ones. They have to get everything out of their hearts that is poisonous for the human spirit and the nature that G-d wants man to respect, that He created him with the human nature that G-d gave to man.
IWDM:
And if we know what G-d fearing means, it says, "Huda al Mutaqim. The word Mutaqim is translated "G-d fearing," it is translated, the regardful. The scholars of the Qur'an, the Arabic language of Qur'an, they all say that it cannot be translated exactly into any other language. It needs commentary, not just translation but commentary.
IWDM:
So the commentary on this word, Mutaqeem. It comes from the word Taqit, which means to reverence, to respect, to have a serious, sacred, wholesome respect. G-d does not only say that we are to have this for him. He says in our Holy Book, to have it also for the close relatives, for mom and dad, sisters, and brother, for the family. We are to have this also for the family, this reverence. G-d even uses it in another way, the same word, Wal Taqa Nar, which means, and have the same reverence, the same respect for fire. For fire.
IWDM:
So it's translated also fear. Those who fear G-d. It's translated also fear. So this is a word that means a sacred respect, a sincere respect and reverence, for G-d, firstly, and for our parents, and for all the things that G-d has obligated us to respect. And respect keeps us from going to extremes. If we respect one another, we respect our families, have that kind of respect for our families, we don't go to extremes. If we have that kind of respect for the community, we don't go to extremes where we become injurious, violent and crazy and destructive.
IWDM:
And again, we have to have that respect for life, for G-d is the giver of life. G-d is the giver of life. So Muslims have to have that same sacred respect for life, for human life. And the community, our community that G-d gave us, G-d gave us our community. We believe that the community life of Muslims was revealed to us. It was not the creation of Muhammad the Prophet. G-d guided Muhammad the Prophet to establish our community, and our community is part of the middle way community.
IWDM:
And what is that saying? The scholars in Islam, the learned in Islam, the preachers who know their religion, for a Muslim, they will tell you, it means that we are not to go to extremes. It is the midway, Wusta. It is the midway community. It is the middle community that does not go to the extreme left and does not go to the extreme right, but in the middle where the human heart is, and where the lungs, the breath of life is. It's supposed to stay right there where the human heart is and where the breath of life is, the midway community.
IWDM:
And this is supported by what is written, is given to us in Qur'an, in our Holy Book about the Spirit that G-d sends into human being. It says it is a Spirit that goes right in the middle of the human being, from the middle of the human being. It goes out from the middle, the left and the right on each side. But that spirit goes out from the heart and from the lungs, human compassion and the breath of life, and the breath of life.
IWDM:
But how many in the society, even among our modern day leaders, our popular leaders. How many know that? How many are conscious of that? Even if they've read it, how many are conscious of that? Very few, very few. So religion is spoiled by troubles in the world. The minds of religious leaders fall rotten, and that we lose the real picture of our religion, the real meaning, the real message, et cetera.
IWDM:
I was reading in the publication of the Focolare people. It's called The Little City. I subscribe to the magazine. It's a beautiful magazine and they have a beautiful leader, Chiara Lubrich. She's Catholic, but she practices and preaches and leads the worldwide following that are committed to practice Christ's love, the principle of love that Christ gave to his followers.
IWDM:
Anyway, this article that I read in that publication, The Little City, had a name of a person in there that brought my attention right to the article because I know I knew him. I have personal acquaintance with him, and he's a very important intellect in Islam, one of the best of our minds in Islam. His name is Ibrahim Izadeen , well known in our community of leaders in America and in immigrant Muslim communities too.
IWDM:
I'm sure most of the leaders would know of him, but in the Emirates he's well, well known, very popular, popular in the Emirates. And also he's a native of Egypt, and Egyptians know him very well. He's a well known man in the East, in the Middle East and in Africa. And even in Asia, well known.
IWDM:
And he said, his words that he gave The Little City magazine I want to share with you because it explains, it shows us what has happened to our religion. His words are good enough for me. I'll use his words. He said that if, had religions not been used by others, religions would not have to come together and dialogue to know one another and to have respect for one another so that we can exist together and work together. This was his saying.
IWDM:
Now I don't know exactly all what he was referring to, but I know Islam did not come to make war. Islam came to make peace. Our Prophet was forced to fight those who were persecuting him and his followers. He was forced to do that. He did not want to do that. He had to get a Revelation from G-d saying, "Now fight the persecutors," to return the fight to them. Fight the persecutor. But G-d said also, "And be not the aggressors. Be not the aggressors".
IWDM:
And G-d says further, if those that you are fighting, your enemies, show that they want to have peace, or end the fighting, say you incline towards them likewise. You be also ready to discuss peace with them. So Islam only tolerates war, does not want war. Only when we are defending life and from people who want to take our life from us. And no life is more precious to us than our spiritual life that G-d gives us with His spirit.
IWDM:
No life is more precious than that, but we have to defend that life. That life is more precious to us than our own physical bodies. It's that life that's the precious life. So if people persecute, and this is from what I want to say from my own time. And to you too, that Islam, Islam came to establish the freedom of religion, the freedom of religion, and to fight those who persecute religion, not just Islam, but those who persecute any religion, any religion.
IWDM:
If Muhammad was here and was aware that one religion was persecuted or another, I'm sure that he would be working against that. Whether it's Muslims persecuting Christians, or Christians persecuting Muslims, or Buddhist persecuting another religion, or another religion persecuting the Buddhist or any religions in conflict, I'm sure he would not like that. If one was guilty of trying to destroy the other, I'm sure he would've been against them. And he would have used every means available to him and to have peace, to make peace between the two factions, between the two, the opponents, and he would be willing to bring physical pressure to bear on them if it was necessary.
IWDM:
So Islam is for the freedom of religion. Our first freedom that we have in these United States, it didn't begin with the United States. It began with Muhammad the Prophet, became, G-d says, "And fight the persecutors until religion is free for G-d." That means so for every individual to be free, to have his relationship with his G-d. Thank you.
Speaker 2:
I was thinking our assigned theme, how religion protects against extremism. It seems to me in discussions recently that the word extremism has gotten linked, I most often hear it linked to Muslim extremism and therefore the very term I think can cause some suspicion. Where do we get this term? And what are we talking about?
Speaker 2:
It's the nature of religion to be passionate, to care deeply, and ultimate commitment. If somebody murders someone in the Name of G-d, that person is not an extremist, they're a murderer. And I'm just, I'm uncomfortable with the term extremism. Maybe tonight we can struggle for another term, but part of it is I think Americans, North Americans are shocked that there's anybody left that organizes his or her life totally around religion. And that person automatically is dismissed as a fundamentalist and extremist, a throwback.
Speaker 2:
I'm thinking of an article by Andrew Sullivan that came out early after, in October saying, "This is a religious war." And basically as I read the article it simply said, this is a war against religious fundamentalism in all forms. And this is a fight for the modern world, for democracy. Bill Moyers the other night was saying, "There's a cure for religious bloodshed and killing. And it's called democracy. Democracy keeps all religions in their place." And this has sort of been the American formula, that in America, you're free to be just as religious as you want to, as long as that does not conflict with your, that your primary allegiance is being in American.
Speaker 2:
But that is all to say that as a Christian, I'm supposed to have problems with that. Because in our religion is a saying of, for G-d so loved the world He gave His only begotten son. It doesn't say G-d loved America. It doesn't say G-d loved any country. And Jesus, it said, Jesus is for the whole world. So I was thinking tonight, if you ask Christians, now what's an extremist position, we would say the United States. Whether you draw lines across the world and say, "Now this is our line. You step over line, we'll kill you." Or, "We're going to defend these lines." Jesus didn't, that wasn't what Jesus was about.
Speaker 2:
So I bet people will have trouble accepting this, but I think as a Christian, I'd say that the way we protect against extremism is by being more intense Christians. We actually believe that the more we're linked to this Jesus, the more we're in touch with our neighbor, the more peaceful lives we live. And it's up to me to demonstrate that in my life.
Speaker 2:
And even as I'm saying that, there's somebody thinking, "Wait a minute, I've seen Christians do this, do that." Which leads me to another observation about Christians in extremism, is that is to be a Christian, is to be taught on a weekly basis that you're sinful. In my place we all gather on a weekly basis, and the first thing I have everyone do is to stand up and say, repeat after me, "I'm a sinner. I do wrong. I think wrong. I feel wrong. I mess up. Some of the worst things I do are done in the name of what I think are the best things I do." And I'm sorry, everybody's going to sit down. And that we keep being told that, you know, you're not G-d. G-d's ways are higher than your ways. And I like the Imam's stress, the way on reverence.
Speaker 2:
One of the troubles we think with the modern world is, we're taught that we're G-d. We're taught we're the center of all meaning. When I say to someone, "Why'd you do that?" "Well, this what seemed right to me and I am the center of all moral value. I'm the ultimate judge of what's what."
Speaker 2:
Well, religious people tend to say no, that's how we get into horrible problems. We stand under the judgment of G-d. And so Christianity gets criticized for saying, that's sinful, that's sinful, we're sinful. But that's part of what's called training in humility. It's training in realizing that I'm a creation of G-d. I am not, despite all my wonderful attributes, G-d, which means that I get stuff wrong a lot. And that the moment I say, "Thus saith the Lord," which I do on a weekly basis, I've got this whole tradition behind me saying, who are you? You've got it wrong.
Speaker 2:
I thought the Imam's stress on interpretation......We have this book, the Bible. Got a lot of it from the Jews and then added a lot with Jesus. And it's hard to read. And people read it for their whole lives and still complain, "Gee, I got that wrong last year when I read it. I've had to redo my interpretation. Somebody just corrected me on that." And it strikes me, that's a powerful ..... Because our religious books are so darned difficult to understand you get them wrong a lot. And so life becomes a long process of having your readings corrected.
Speaker 2:
My wife was at a Bible study group in September, and the week of September the 11th, they were studying the Book of Lamentations, which Bruce knows more about than I do, but I've never read the book of Lamentations, I don't think. They had to spend all week reading. But I came in one day and she said, "You know, we're nobody special, America." I said, "What do you mean?" She said, "Read the book of Lamentations. There's a lot of rubble in history, that there's a lot of people who spent a lot of history with their cities in ruins and their national hopes dashed. And they've driven back to G-d."
Speaker 2:
And I thought to myself, just observing this woman doing this, that's a proof of one's religion, which says to you, you're not the son of the world. Your country's not the son of the world. Welcome to the world.
Speaker 2:
And just that afternoon, I'd seen a woman from Israel saying, "I hate that the people in the United States are having to go through what we live through all the time." Which just reminds me that my world is way too small. And religion is about making me call somebody a brother that I don't even, it's not even in my family, making me see a responsibility for someone whose not of my nationality. And so I would say extremism tends to be the Nationalism, the narrowness that's characterized the bloodiest century maybe the world's ever been through, the 20th.
Speaker 2:
On the Mark Twain special on PBS the other night, Mark Twain was quoted as saying, "When one thinks of all the blood that's been shed in the name of G-d and all of the people killed, and all of the tragedy, religion is the worst thing that ever happened." And I thought, well, maybe in the 19th century, you could argue that point persuasively, but we've lived through the 20th century. Hitler, Mao, Stalin, didn't kill people in the name of religion. The state has proved to be a particularly bloody creation of the modern world. And Christians keep trying to believe that the state, even the state is under G-d and is accountable to that.
Speaker 2:
So those things come to my mind and that, and one main thing about when you hear people, different religions talk, if you realize different ways that we're formed by our faith, and it's a Christian claim that I'm a much more peaceful person, humble person than I would've been without the reformation of Jesus.
Speaker 2:
For instance, the Imam was talking about defending life, defending against religious persecution and intolerance. And I was thinking, one of my problems when we talk about defending is Jesus. Jesus, who, when it came time for him to mount a good self defense, wouldn't do it. And when we his followers took up a sword and tried to defend him for him, he cursed us and told us to put away the sword. And I wish that night he had defended himself or tried, because that didn't help me to defend myself.
Speaker 2:
So I'm just saying that to try to follow this G-d, just to keep having your life formed by that. And we, it's a claim, got to prove it in the way I live, but it's a claim that my life is better and is protected against some of the murderous extremes that characterized our century, by that faith.
Rabbi Bruce:
I'm sorry for the people who I can't really see because of the way this podium's positioned . Yeah, I'll move over a little bit, but hopefully you can hear me and that'll be fine. I'd also like to start with what was, and for many people is still a very traditional Jewish greeting, but you don't hear it so much, but that is also Shalom Aleichem. And it's also peace be on you. And it is responded to in the same way, Aleichem Shalom, meaning that the person who is greeted in Peace has responded in Peace.
Rabbi Bruce:
And that model of offering in response, one person to another, is an important part of what protects us from extremism. And I had written down a verse from the Book of Lamentations. And since Dean Welleman had mentioned it, I'll start with that. "Turn us, oh Lord, to you, and we shall be turned. Renew our days as of old."
Rabbi Bruce:
This is a verse that we repeat a lot during the high holidays, during the end of the year where we're attempting to renew ourselves as the world is renewed, but it's important because it shows the relationship between humans and G-d. And this is a central idea of Judaism that there's a Covenant and we are in Covenant with G-d. And because of that, we have responsibilities to G-d and G-d has responsibilities to us.
Rabbi Bruce:
One of the responsibilities that G-d has to us is that G-d gave us teachings, gave us the Torah. And in the end, that should in itself protect us from extremism because the whole purpose of the Torah, according to some interpreters, is what's discussed kind of, in various places in the Book of Leviticus. The purpose is to make us bold, that we should be like G-d, in the same way that the Imam said, that we should ... And Dean said also that we should imitate G-d and we should become Holy because G-d is Holy.
Rabbi Bruce:
Most of the commandments that we taught that are in the Torah, do not have reasons. And if they are reasons, it's kind of like when your parents tell you, you know, because I said so. But in the Book of Leviticus, quite a few times, we learned, "You should do it because I am Holy. You should act this way to be holy because I, G-d, am Holy." It's not that we make ourselves G-d, but that we are supposed to approach and return, as in the verse from Lamentations, to turn towards G-d and towards what is Holy.
Rabbi Bruce:
And the Hebrew words for Holy is something that is separate or is unique, which you might say is an extreme, but here it's not the extreme, it's kind of the middle. So you're supposed to be pulling yourself away from the extremes into the middle. And in the Middle Ages, actually living in Egypt in the, at the height of the Middle Ages in the time when all of philosophy and science was really being transmitted through the Muslim world, Moses Hermonides, known as Haranbun, said that the purpose of Torah, the purpose of our whole teaching, comes from one of three reasons, whether or not there's a reason given.
Rabbi Bruce:
And one of them is supposed to teach us some type of truth to help us live our lives, to live our lives in a way with what is true in the world. That's one reason.
Rabbi Bruce:
Another is to enable ourselves to transform who we are to achieve some type of moral perfection, or the moral qualities that we're supposed to achieve, that's making ourselves holy.
Rabbi Bruce:
And the third is to achieve a just society and to avoid the typical injustices which come out of natural kind of human interactions and humans being interested in their themselves over others.
Rabbi Bruce:
This third one is really, has been seen as kind of the Prophetic mission of Judaism, is to, in Hebrew it's .........To repair the world in G-d's image or by way of G-d's image, depending on how you would translate the Hebrew.
Rabbi Bruce:
And so that's our job. And whatever the actual details and the rules are, it's coming for one of those three reasons, which all go back to trying to make the world a better place. That G-d, for some reason, created an imperfect world and it is our job to perfect it. And extremism is to make the world a more imperfect world. And that's the very opposite of what we should be doing.
Rabbi Bruce:
The interesting thing is, that when you look at a traditional Jewish Bible, it doesn't just have the text. It has the text, and surrounding the text on either side above and below are many different points of view, many different interpretations. And these are not always interpretations that are kind. These are the kinds of things that, the people usually weren't alive at the same time. But they're almost as if they're fighting with each other and they're saying, "You know, there's no possible way that interpretation is right. My way is right."
Rabbi Bruce:
And they give you all sorts of reasons. And they're based in different societies and time periods and drawing from the cultures around them. But they're enshrining within the tradition, multiple interpretations. And indeed we learn in the Mishnah that every dispute that's for the sake of heaven will ultimately endure.
Rabbi Bruce:
So within the tradition, there's not one right way, even within Judaism, that we've created a system where there's multiple right ways, maybe the right way for one time or the right way for one person. And even if in some instances where there's descriptions in the Midrash of Hillel and Shammai. They had long standing disagreements, and there's a heavenly voice that says, "Both of them are the words of the living G-d," meaning both of them have the ultimate level of authority, but the laws like Hillel.
Rabbi Bruce:
And so the question asked by the text, what, they both have the same level of authority, how can it be that one is the correct way and the other isn't? And depending on which source you're looking at, they give multiple reasons. One is that that's the right one for that time period and that situation.
Rabbi Bruce:
But the other is that it's the way in which they approach the disagreement and argument. And that Hillel said it in a way that was kind and was understanding. And then even that Hillel mentioned the opposite point of view; not only that, but even mentioned it first. So he started with the words of the other, and he interacted in a way of kindness.
Rabbi Bruce:
And there's a similar text that we should make ourselves heart of many rooms, or make our heart into one of many rooms and bring into it the words of Hillel or the words of Shammai, the words of one that says, "You can do this act," and the words that say, "There's no way you can do that act." And you should internalize all that within your heart.
Rabbi Bruce:
And that's what we're supposed to have. We're supposed to have a tradition which allows ourselves to say, we're not positive exactly what the truth is, and that the person who's saying something else may also have truth. In fact, they may also be more right. And I think that in itself additionally protects us from extremism, because if you acknowledge that you may not know everything, and that the other person is as equal in their authority or their possibility of being right as you are, then you have to think twice about what you're going to do and what you're going to say, and kind of turn back in again, towards the center.
Rabbi Bruce:
In the Talmud, it also says that the gates of prayer may be closed since the disruption of the temple, that we may live in a world where prayers might not work, but the gates of Chabad, the gates of returning and turning towards others and turning towards G-d, that always remains open.
Rabbi Bruce:
And that's really powerful, because it says, it's not just whatever I do on my own. I can't go off and be an aesthetic and live a life where I just sit there and I pray all the time. That doesn't, that's not necessarily going to get me there. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that, but that's not enough. What's going to get me there is being in relationship, the relationship with others, the ones around me, children of, all who are G-d's children, as well as being in relationship with G-d and acknowledging that we may not be right. And because of that, that's the types of response that will be accepted.
Rabbi Bruce:
And I'd just like to conclude. In the Book of Deuteronomy it says, choose life. And in the Talmud it says that the traditions, you shall live by them, but you shall not die because of them. And whatever our traditions and whatever we say, it's to make the world better and to make a life worth living. And obviously if it's leading towards people dying and for yourself dying, then that's far from what the truth, on what the religion teaches.
Rabbi Bruce:
I appreciate being here and the discussion. And to hear your questions.
Speaker 4:
My friends, I'm sure you'll agree we're off to a marvelous start. Our panelists have given us very profound statements to begin this with. We now have time to have questions or comments from you, our guests. I ask you now to follow the following order. If you would stand, tell us your name, tell us who you're directing your question to. If it's to the entire panel, please say so. And then the panel respond.
Speaker 4:
Before the first person stands, there is a question from the students for the panelists. Could, would the panelists please respond to the following question? What is the relationship between extremism and terrorism, between extremism or religious zeal and terrorism? What is the difference in relationship? Did anyone hear the question?
IWDM:
I have also a problem with the term extremists the terms extremists and fundamentalists. I understand these terms in our world now, but I have a problem because I am a fundamentalist. I am a fundamentalist and that is, I believe, in what is basic and fundamental in my religion.
IWDM:
And that does not make me an extremist. It has made me a passionate person and a modest person and a person respectful of others. So it's, my fundamentalism does not make me an extremist. And, but I do have also extremes that I go through. I am an extremist too. I love G-d extremely. I don't tame myself. I go through extremes.
IWDM:
So we do have problems with these terms, and we have extremes demonstrated in our religions, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Extremes for G-d. We go to extremes, make extreme sacrifices. We go to extremes. For G-d's sake, for what G-d wants, which is a beautiful life for all of us. You know?
IWDM:
So I have, I do have problems with the terms that we are hearing in the news, in the air now, from news media, the television and newspapers, of talking to people and saying they are extremists and they are fundamentalists. I think this is influence of our secular society, that doesn't want us to be too serious about anything.
Speaker 2:
I don't think I have anything to add to the discussion on, because I don't, if I didn't know what extremism was, I'm embarrassed that I'm not able to come to a clearer definition of what, who a terrorist is. I guess in the news, terrorist is somebody who uses violence, but is not working for the government.
Speaker 2:
And we, I think we live in a horribly violent world where the main way to accomplish good, the main way to accomplish peace, order, stability, security, is violence. And it just, there's a lot of violence, on this campus and out there and over there. And so I'm just, I don't know.
Rabbi Bruce:
What I remember about terrorism is two things. One is that you are never a terrorist. Only the other people are terrorist. You are a freedom fighter, they're a terrorist. And that's an interesting point of view. You almost never hear someone get up and say, "I'm a terrorist." And they'd say, "I'm justified. I'm right." They come up with all sorts of reasons that they're not a terrorist. And then they always find, usually when someone's saying that, they always refer to someone else as being the terrorist.
Rabbi Bruce:
But again, it's not just violence. It's violence, and this is something that I think, it's violence directed at people other than those who can defend themselves or at people other than those who are really the ones either making decisions or responsible. And that, whether that's in the structure of society, which has put some structure around violence, not necessarily for better, but has put structure that there are ways of doing it and there are ways of reacting, even within violence that are acceptable and unacceptable.
Rabbi Bruce:
And we see that the United States being called , on the way it's treating people who are prisoners, because they may not be treating them within the rules of violent conflict. They may not be treating them within war. They're very easy kind of reaction. "Well, it's not war so we can do what we want." But that's, there's a structure upon which that Nations have agreed to have violence, even though it's not good. And then the problem is, terrorism in my view is when people go beyond them.
Rabbi Bruce:
So instead of picking on a soldier, who's wearing a uniform, who doesn't deserve to get shot or blown up, but they're doing a duty which may include them. I mean, they are being paid to take on that risk, sometimes by force and sometimes at their own choice.
Rabbi Bruce:
That's not the person a terrorist goes after, almost never. The terrorist goes after my good friends, Matt Eisenfeld and Sara Duker.......May their memories be for a blessing. Two students who were in Israel. And Sarah's sister Tammy was a Duke student, a Duke junior at the time in '95 when her sister died.
Rabbi Bruce:
They were just on a bus. And that is what a terrorist strikes. A terrorist is not, and that's not saying that that's, if they had attacked someone who was a soldier, that'd be good, but it'd be less likely to be labeled terrorism. And the extremist, the difference between extremism and terrorism is just that, that there can be extremes for good. I don't think there can be terror for good. By it's very nature, I don't think you can say, "I'm an extreme for terror, and that's a good thing."
Speaker 4:
Questions? Please stand.
Michael:
Michael. And my question is, to you all, as religious leaders, what needs to change in the world? What do you all think needs to change? And what is a practical way that a college student, for example, can help achieve change?
IWDM:
I will answer the question. And, what do we need to change? What is the practical way to change the things we need to change? For me, we need to change the way we live our own religion. Most of us are not living our religion as we should be living our religion. So we need to change the way we live our religion. And to do that, we need a renewed perception of our religion.
IWDM:
I think we have been too much engaged, by troubles in the world. And even our leaders have been occupied too much with troubles in the world, that has done something to their minds and made them, they've lost something in their souls. They've lost a lot of their purity of their souls. And guidance from G-d requires that our leaders have pure and innocent souls to perceive the guidance correctly. This is Islam. I think this is Christianity. This is Judaism. You have to be pure before you can receive G-d and understand G-d, have communication in the best way.
IWDM:
For example, if I had not studied the Bible, I would not appreciate Christianity as I do. The idea that I had in my mind of Christianity before I studied the Bible, did not make me respect Christianity and the Bible as I do now. So we need leaders that will call us back to a second reading of the Bible, and they should do it first. Our leaders should read it again first, to digest the purity of the Bible.
IWDM:
The Bible has purity in it. I studied it as a Muslim. The Bible has purity in it from Genesis to Revelation. There's a line of purity. And if you are a G-d fearing person, don't have any selfish intentions, you will be able to read the Bible and discover that unbroken line of purity from Genesis to Revelation. Yes, it's a troublesome book that has a lot in it that way, but it's not for those who have bad intentions. It's for those who have good intentions.
IWDM:
And we need to have leaders who have good intentions in Islam, Christianity, and we need to find the purity of our religion again. That's what we need to change. We need to change the way we live our religion and the way our leaders are perceiving the Scriptures. That's what we need to change.
IWDM:
To me, that's very practical. I don't know what, some others say it is not practical, but for me, that's very practical. And if we will practice what G-d wants us to preach, not what we are preaching necessarily. But if we'll practice what G-d wants us to preach, then we will be doing it in a very practical way. And the world will benefit from it, and we will solve most of these serious problems we have for religion. And if we solve the most serious problems we have for religion, the secular world will change. It will become better.
Speaker 2:
I think my religion doesn't have a lot of good advice for top down governmental solutions. Now plenty of Christians disagree with me in that, and would love to run something and change it. But, I think, I was listening intently to the Imam. I think probably, my faith does say that we must be born again. We must be changed. "I'm not right."
Speaker 2:
Years ago, G. K. Chesterton, a great Christian apologist writer, was asked to write an article on what's wrong with the world. He said, "I'd be glad to write an article." About a month later he sent back an article with two words, I am.
Speaker 2:
And my faith keeps wanting to start with me, start one at a time. I mean, start from the grassroots. Go up. That doesn't seem very effective, but maybe that's the only way we do it. And one thing I like about the college students around here, many of them, is they've kind of given up faith in the big top down solutions. And so I'm just saying, I think it requires this, a willingness to turn, to repent, to keep returning, to keep some.....
Rabbi Bruce:
There was a movie that I saw on cable. I haven't seen the whole thing, but it's called Pay It Forward. And it's a teacher who asks exactly this question, "What could you do to change the world? And he doesn't...... It's not top down. It's one by one, one thing. And then that person is supposed to pay it forward, not pay it back for the person who did them a good thing, but pay it to the next person. And it can't stop. It keeps going.
Rabbi Bruce:
And when we ... In the story of, in Exodus, of the revelation at Sinai, which we read last week, the response that the people give is....... (Hebrew Spoken) First, they say we will do. And then they say, we will listen.
Rabbi Bruce:
And this is kind of problematic. Usually you say, "Well, let me listen first, and then I'll do." But the problem is that you can't always wait until you get it to start doing. So our tradition tells us, don't wait till you're going to understand everything about prayer before praying. Don't wait until you really understand what the result is about helping someone. Help them and then worry about afterwards if it makes sense. If it doesn't, help somebody else and then worry about it, if it makes sense. Now you have two people helped. And even if you still don't get it, so you go to a third person and you help them, all of a sudden you've changed an awful lot of people.
Rabbi Bruce:
And if they keep paying it forward, I mean, I think it's a wonderful idea. Then they show you how this little boy in the movie affects lots and lots of people. Things don't work out for him, but ... Sorry to give it away. But the world changes because of one individual, and it starts with us. And that's the grassroots thing. You have to figure out what you......You have to do it and then worry about what it means and how it can all make sense, because you know, that may not come for a very long time.
Speaker 4:
One question.
Barnes:
My name iss Marvis Barnes. I'm a Christian minister. And the question's for the entire panel. We currently, at least our President, has presented this astronomical budget that's going to place, that's, you know, we got to dig deep in our pockets. And so if we're going to be in a deficit and so forth and so on.
Barnes:
And it seems that a lot of the conversation is about how can we as a Nation protect ourselves, and so forth and so on. But there seems to be few positions taken as far as how does America look at its position in the world, and in light of what happened on September 11th, and ask the question, how have we, how did we contribute to that?
Barnes:
And as a minister, I struggle with trying to articulate that to my congregation in a way that's clear and concise, because so oftentimes when one raises the question that somehow or another America has to look at itself, and immediately one is labeled unAmerican, unpatriotic.
Barnes:
And so as men of faith, men of conscience, what do you say to us in trying, in living our faith in a way that does not ... I don't know. How do we speak to the whole issue of what are we willing to acknowledge? It was like the issue of slavery and race relations in America. We have yet to come to the realization that that great sin happened. We won't deal with it. And consequently, we continue to have problems with racism in our country. So that's my question.
Rabbi Bruce:
Well, one thing about how we contributed is, and that maybe we did have a little bit of an attitude. Now we have some things that we think are really, really good and really all the right things, and the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, and it works for, it should work for everyone. And that may be true, but I think that there needs to be a little bit of humility in how we bring it to other people.
Rabbi Bruce:
But on the other hand, I do think it's justified for the United States to say, I want a world that respects multiple points of view and respects us. And we don't want a world where people jump up and down and burn our flag and things like that. So I think just by saying that, we might say things like that in our foreign policy, is not saying we brought 9/11 on ourselves.
Rabbi Bruce:
I think we're justified in saying some of that, but perhaps need to be looking at how we're saying it. And are we, when we say that, are we really denying that everyone's made in G-d's image, which is the essential truth.
Speaker 2:
You're uh... You're talking, I was thinking that ... It's occurred to me after 9/11, and I think Christians often overlook how very strange it is to be part of this faith that puts a lot of emphasis on confession of sin, forgiveness. And that's part of our thing. And we ought not to act as if that's easy. And I think, the way that I think America has shown repeatedly, it's really hard for us to tell the truth about race, about slavery.
Speaker 2:
But then I say, "Oh, that's true. You don't believe in a G-d that forgives anything." So it's kind of hard to admit, we really have done the evil. And I like your worry about....I heard a preacher say a while back is that we had this period of unprecedented prosperity, unprecedented security and unprecedented peace. What did do we do with it?
Speaker 2:
And when somebody says, "Boy, the greatness of America has really come out since 9/11," I think, well if that's true, that's sad if it took a horrible act of violence to make us a nation. No, when we want to be a nation was back six years ago when we should have been doing something about schools and should have been doing something about healthcare, et cetera. But we chose to do a kind of Enron thing, grab all you can get and to hell with everybody else.
Speaker 2:
So, but again, I'm sounding like a preacher. And so, but I would just, I guess I'm just saying that Brother Barnes, you're being to me very Christian and even worried about this kind of thing. And even suggesting that there might be something in my past and that my great grandparents that I might need to confess and repent and say, I hope there's a G-d who just loves sinners. Because you know, I'm a candidate. So.....
IWDM:
I think a combination of things really say it in my effort to respond. One step, knowledge is very important. Revelation, guidance, very important. That's the life for us. But also that is intended to address the need in man's soul, to be in a good picture for his own soul. His own soul wants me in a good picture. We ignore our own soul, but our soul, every human soul wants the human person in a good picture.
IWDM:
So character becomes very, very important, so important that we are not to accept a leader to be over us, no matter how learned he is, if he is not a good character. Character is very important in our religion. Muhammad for us is a model of human character that G-d wants in the world so that we all will know what picture of the human being G-d approves of. And it says in our Holy Book, he is a model for any who believes in G-d and believes in the last day. That means for those who believe in G-d and being accountable, and being accountable.
IWDM:
And then I want to come from another focus here. And that is what G-d says in our Holy Book. It says, "G-d has created everything to promote the growth of knowledge and Mercy." Everything, not just human life, but everything. That He has created, everything. A stone, everything, to promote the growth of knowledge and Mercy.
IWDM:
So I believe that if just, I think we share the same idea, the three great religions, that knowledge is a Mercy. And even if we have a division in our life. We have too many divisions in our life that should be whole. G-d wants our life to be whole, complete, whole. Whatever He has given us, He has given everything. Isn't that what Genesis said? He gave us all of this. It's for us, the skies, everything, the vegetation of life, all the life, the fish in the sea, everything is for us, even the heavenly bodies.
IWDM:
And I often tell Muslim audiences, the West that you talk about, they must have heard that and you didn't. Because at least we have an interest in space. We have an interest in the skies, you know? G-d wants us to digest the whole universe He created, to digest it and get the best out of it. And so this secular world in our religious world shouldn't exist, and it doesn't exist for me. I don't think of the world secular, the society that put science and government over everything else, as a world that I don't belong to. Also, I belong to it. It has the wrong perception of reality for me, it perceives reality incorrectly, but I don't say I don't belong to it. I belong to the secular world. I appreciate science. I love science.
IWDM:
And science has brought forth great Mercy to human society. So many Mercies, you know. And human society has refused it because we perceived it wrongly. Or we don't obey G-d, the Creator of it. G-d created everything, the world of material, materials things. And also the science that we get out of the material world. And if we think, whole, and I think this is the message of Christ Jesus, we have to become whole. And I don't think that just means have the complete faith. No, you have to complete more than your faith. You have to complete also your rational perception G-d wants you to have.
Joe:
Joe. Thank you for the presentation. I have a question for the Imam, W. Mohammed. The question I have, will you take the time to define jihad. I think many times we listen to the press from the web, when we hear the word jihad, we think it's no more than just a holy war. But I think as a Muslims community, we know there's more than that. It's a struggle. And a particular type of struggle that most people will go through in their lifetime and the Muslim community will go through most definitely. So I would like for you to take the time to express jihad. And also do you still feel that if you have a corrupt government, the government is not doing the things that's necessary for the people within that country, do you still feel that it's up to the religious leadership to take the position to eliminate that corrupt government?
IWDM:
Yes. Thank you. G-d says to us, "Jahidu Fisibillilahi Bihawalikum Wa An Fusikum". The translation is, struggle, not make war, not jihad as we understand it now. Struggle in the path of G-d by the means of your own soul and your wealth. And your wealth. "Fusikum Bihawalikum" means of your own soul and your wealth.
IWDM:
Now, certainly this refers to war against those who persecute faith, People of faith. It does refer to that, but G-d has made the language to communicate to us in a way that it protects us from thinking of fighting people as being more fighting those who are against us, who are trying prevent us from having a life we want more than we think of our own condition. This addresses our personal conditions, our own souls, by means of our soul. So G-d wants us to know that you cannot succeed in the world against obstacles, unless your own soul's in the good shape He wants your soul to be, number one.
IWDM:
And then if your soul is in a good condition, you will use your wealth in a manner that respect what G-d wants and gets the admiration of decent human beings everywhere. So this is not just a call for us to take arms and fight our enemies who are persecuting us. It's a call also for us, firstly, to look into our own souls and make sure we have had the first jihad that Islam says is the more important jihad, the jihad with our own soul, the struggle with our own soul. So they have an expression in Arabic, just a common language expression, common people's language, (Arabic spoken). If you want to be successful then struggle.
IWDM:
So the jihad takes on that meaning that we know now, fight, fight. It takes on that meaning after the Crusades and all the trouble we've had, we have changed the meaning, just like the meaning, the word freedom does not mean in our common language now what it meant for the Founding Fathers and what it means for people, decent people in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. This freedom that we have is a corrupt freedom. It is a poisonous freedom. It is a freedom that has lost the soul, the true soul of freedom. It is not the freedom that we want, this freedom to do anything we want, to ignore sacred matters, to put our own self emphasis before everything else, or permissive freedom. Yes.
IWDM:
So just like freedom has lost it's meaning in this history, the modern time of just doing whatever we want to release and relieving ourselves from responsibility to G-d and to sacred matters, so has the meaning of struggle been poisoned and has lost it's purity. The real struggle is not to go on the battlefield with weapons and to finance it with our wealth, like Osama Bin Laden, the guy who is financing terrorism with his wealth. That's not jihad in Islam.
Audience:
There is a question from a sister.
Audience:
I don't have a question, but I want to speak to the young man who asked the question, what could college students do? I was coming home one evening and there was a young man on NPR and he was talking about, he grew up in this well to do family in upper New York. And he was saying, I don't know if anybody else heard this report, but he was saying that he went to Philadelphia and it looked like a third world country. And he had never experienced anything like this before in his life. And ... I'm nervous. I don't know why but I am. But at any rate, he hadn't experienced anything like this before in his life. And he wanted to do something. And so the commentator asked, "Well, what is it that made you think it was a third world country?" He said, the buildings were boarded up. There were drug dealers out on the street, openly, you could see it.
Audience:
And so he decided, got some group of young folk like yourself. And they began to do repairs in the city. He got locked up because he stayed in the places that he repaired. But over a number of times doing this, the city government actually allowed him to restore this, and homeless people were able to go in there and live. So I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that your concern, your energy, your youth, we have a saying in our religion, "Make use of five before fire deprives you." And as a youth, use your youth. Use your influence. Thank you.
Josh:
My name's Joshua Sr. I have a question, I guess, for the entire group. My question is, and it's been dealt with by the Imam and Dean. Sometimes it seems that the world of the religious and the worlds of People of faith is in opposition to the secular world. Abraham, who is the Patriarch of all three religions, is called (Hebrew spoken) and literally it means on the other side, in that he stood on one side and the rest of the world seemed to stand on the other side. So my question to you is, as People of faith, how do you engage and live in the secular world, sort of while remaining above. How do you engage the secular world that seems to scream against everything that your religion holds dear, while being true to your religion, which sometimes seems to stand on the other side of all the secular world, and balance the two without becoming an extremist?
IWDM:
I accept the separation of church and state. And I accept the separation of government and religion. And government works for the world, to develop the world, to develop the material world so that the material benefit will come through society. And the government will be supporting the people's desire for more comfort in life, cetera. So I support that. That's good. I support that.
IWDM:
And religious people have to accept that this is the nature of American Democracy, and it is not going to change. We have to live with that. So what we should do is compete with the secular world and in order to compete with the secular world, we going to have to reconcile our own life. That's spiritual and rational. That's spiritual and material. If we reconcile our own life and get an interest in developing the material world ourselves and support the development of the material world, I'm sure that we would have a bigger role in the material development of the world, a bigger role. And as we get a bigger role in the material development of the world, I'm sure government will accept that we shape the secular world also.
Speaker 2:
I think I would just, may respond a bit more personally. Say one thing I like about this student generation as I've experienced you is, weird is a good thing. Weird is like a criticism if I say someone's weird. If you say they're weird, you mean as a compliment, you mean they're interesting. And in the time I've been at Duke, it's been fun to ... Well, as I put it this way. In my time at Duke I've had around a dozen angry, deeply concerned phone calls from parents saying, "Help. I sent my child to Duke to become a success, and they've become a religious fanatic." And religious fanatic is defined as, she wants to go to Israel for three years, she wants to go with Catholics to Haiti and, you know, "Say, lady, I'm from Greenville, South Carolina, I can show you fanatics."
Speaker 2:
I'm just saying, what makes me, it doesn't take much to get labeled some kind of fanatic. To just say there is something more important in my life than investor banking. I mean, suddenly these huge forces move into play to say, you're odd. You're strange. You should be pushed to the margins. You're unbalanced. And I'm, been reminded tonight of a young man, I got to be friends with him after I taught him. And we were walking across campus one day and I said, "Ahmad, is your mother at all worried that we've become friends?" And he said, " Why should she be worried?" I said, "Well, you're Muslim and I'm Christian. Is she worried I might convert you? I'm a Methodist. And we had conversion for a long time."
Speaker 2:
And so he laughed and he said, "No, she's not worried I'm going to become a Christian. She's deeply worried I'm going to become a Muslim." I said, "What do you mean?" And he said, "This is the most contentious issue in my family, because my family came here from Pakistan and my parents quickly figured out to be a success in America, you can't be that good a Muslim. And so they kind of put that on the shelf, and they've become two distinguished doctors in this town." And, but he said, "And that's fine for them, maybe, but I need more."
Speaker 2:
And I said, "You know what? I have heard this conversation from Jew, Muslim, Buddhists, Christians, Evangelical and Catholic." So I'm just saying, I think it's one thing that makes your generation interesting. Now, Bruce can respond to that.
Rabbi Bruce:
When at the beginning, really, or the end of two centuries ago, the beginning of the previous century Zionism came into being, it was criticized by the most religious elements in Judaism. How can you get involved in history and politics, that that's not for you to deal with. That, you know, if G-d wants you to go there, G-d will take care of it.
Rabbi Bruce:
But some religious thinkers said, no, that's not the way. And one of them, Rabbi Cook, Abraham Isaac Cook. He said that there's sanctity in getting involved in the day to day matters of building and creating. And he said that that's part of also what we have to do. Religion isn't just about doing things that are purely religious, it's about being involved in the world. And so then you're religious by being involved in the world, and you can't say it's a secular world. There may be people in that world who are organizing themselves around the secular model, but you are in that world and you may not be, or you're maybe partially. The other thing is acknowledging that there's truth beyond your truth and you may not have it. And so you may not have all the answers. And so by doing that means you have to kind of involve yourself with what's going on.
Rabbi Bruce:
And he's known for a lot of things, but Rabbi Cook said something which I had been thinking about. He said, "Let the old become new, and the new become Holy." And if you think of the world as science, in particular science. Science does huge amounts. And science is probably the closest thing there is to religion. Many people think it's the farthest thing, but the more and more you look at physics today, the more and more it looks like you're looking at a theology textbook. They're just slightly different. They just need one translation, you know.
Rabbi Bruce:
It's based upon theory too.
Rabbi Bruce:
Yeah.I mean, it's based upon the same thing and it comes back to, they don't know. There's an, you know, movement and all of a sudden it left the science building and it's over in the divinity school, you know? So they may be far apart, but they're not. And you know, we should just be engaging it and realizing that other people are going to have, from whatever their point of view, whatever their perspective are not, that they may have some truth and they have something to teach us. And so secular is, it's just, that's their way of organizing the world. And I can learn from them an awful lot.
Speaker 4:
We have time for one more question.
Barbara Kramer:
I'm Barbara Kramer, student at the Divinity School here, and it is unspeakably wonderful to have the three of you here. Just hear the resonances. You're all People of the Book. You're all People of the Book. And here, they have compliments, and complete each other. What I want know is, how do we bring the people in our congregation on the ground?
IWDM:
Just keep on doing what we are doing and be sincere and love everybody, care about this world. It's the home for all of us. G-d didn't make it for any one of us more than he made it for the other. So we just keep on doing what we are doing. This is new for religious communities that we are meeting like this, this is new. And I think this is going to be the answer. And the people, masses of people, when they see religions coming together, respecting each other and having one voice for the common good. I think they're going to take a second look at religion and have more respect for their religion in the long haul. And we are going to see a much more conscious world, I think.
Speaker 2:
I think I could just testify as a Christian, that it has really been wonderful being at a University where there is so much religious diversity. And I think it's having a couple of major effects on me. One is, it's made me more of a Christian because there've been many occasions when Rabbi Bruce or his predecessors have instructed me on the Christian faith. I mean, they didn't mean they to do that, but they just showed me......
Speaker 2:
Something that happened, I was quoting in class this week, Bruce. I didn't call you by name. But Bruce casually mentioned one day, that one of the things that he missed being out of seminary and being here was people to read Scripture with, people to read Torah. "You mean, what do you mean?" And he said, "Well, in a sense, it takes two people to read Torah. You can't just sit alone at home. You've got to have two people to read Torah, one another argue, give insights." And I'm telling the students, I said, "Let's make a rule that no Christian be allowed alone with the Bible."
Speaker 2:
And Bruce gave me that. And I remember one day asking Imam Warith Deen about who, I'd been thinking about gambling and the gambling legislation, lottery and all that. And I said, "And what does Islam say about gambling? And he said, "Well, we're against it." And I said, "Why? As ill gotten gain or what?" And he said, "It's because of what it does to your soul. It's just, the main damage it does is to you, to think that you can get something for nothing, that the world is at the mercy of chance."
Speaker 2:
And you know, that was a gift. So uh, just say uh, and the truth is, what we experience here is the way the world is becoming. So we've got to get better at listening to one another and talking and asking and observing and learning who we are. So I said one day about, kind of how it started out in my mind saying, "I think the best thing is for me to be a better Christian, to follow my faith, be even more committed to be able to follow Jesus." Anytime you want to act more like Jesus, you go right ahead and do it.
Rabbi Bruce:
The important thing is to have discussions with people who aren't like yourself, and not only to do it in, it's good to do it out here in the Bryan Center, but it's also good to do it in your Church and in your Synagogue and in your Mosque, and in your...And more importantly than all those places, in your home and over the meal. And to show children from the youngest age, that while everybody may look different, we're all the same. And that's something that without even planning it, both Imam WarithDeen and I spoke about after September 11th, that G-d created us and we're all descendants of Adam.Yes, we all look different. We can't do that. When we go to create something the Midrash said, if we take a stamp, everything that comes out of that stamp, that dye, is going to look almost the same. But when G-d does it, G-d takes it the same and produces the wonderful diversity of ideas of people.
Rabbi Bruce:
And I've been looking as we were talking, as the others were talking, just looking at everyone's face. And I think that's how we can continue is to just show, everyone else here is made in G-d's image. And if I can remember that at all times ... It's not easy, but, and do that in the house, but also on the street, and do that in the world, all of a sudden, you know, things can be a lot better.
Speaker 4:
I'm sure you'll agree with me that we've had an intellectual feast here. And we thank our guests for this wonderful evening. Before we go, we want to thank our distinguished guests for coming here to Duke University, The Honorable Imam WD Mohammed for being with us. And in two weeks The Honorable Imam will be back in North Carolina at the University of North Carolina Central, February 20th, when at that time we will have another opportunity to hear the wisdom from the Imam. Thank you all for coming. Glad you were here tonight.


