04/23/1998
IWDM Study Library 
Rule in Islam 
Evanston, IL

By Imam W. Deen Mohammed
Speaker 1:
The following lecture titled: Rule in Islam was recorded Thursday, April the 23rd, 1998 at the Garret Evangelical Seminary on the campus of Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois. The lecturer is Imam W. Deen Mohammad, Muslim American Spokesman, and now Imam Mohammad.
IWDM:
Thank you. Peace. Peace. We say As-Salaam Alaikum, which means "Peace be Unto you." We begin by saying we trust G-d with our interest. And we trust G-d that we will benefit ourselves and benefit those who are exposed to our voice and not cause any difficulty or any discomfort or harm to anyone.
Islam is a religion of Muslims, as you know. It is a religion of, I'd say, over 1 billion Muslims now, little over 1 billion Muslims on this earth. And we are as divided as, I would say, Christianity. We have all kind of branches and sometimes we feel closer to some Christian denominations than we do to some Muslim branches. Getting that out of the way. Islam, when the Prophet Muhammad of the Qur'an was asked, "What is religion?" He gave this answer. He said, "Religion is to believe in G-d, to witness that there is One G-d and it is to pray." Pray. He didn't say how many prayers he just said to pray. We pray five daily prayers, that was established by him. But he didn't say it in that answer. He said to pray, to give in charity, to fast the month of Ramadan and to visit the House.
He simply put it that way, "And to visit the House." The House is the Sacred House built by Prophet Abraham called Ibr?h?m in Islamic language, and his son Ismael, called Ishmael in the Bible. And it is, as you perhaps very well aware of, it's the direction for us in prayer. And also, for Hajj, when we make Pilgrimage. We visit that house, that once in lifetime we are obligated to make Pilgrimage to that house. We say Mecca, but it's not really to Mecca, it's to that house.
The house just happened to be in Mecca. Mecca is a cold place sometimes, even in that hot desert. We have to make Pilgrimage to that House, once in a lifetime, if we can find the means to do so. If our health and financial means will permit us to do it. And we have to work hard for it. It's a very essential Pillar of Islam, that we go to the House, visit the House, with the millions of Muslims who come from all over the world.
We experience the brotherhood of Islam. We see it there in reality; we see it there in physical presence of the brotherhood of Islam. The unity of mankind. And that's what that Fifth Pillar is all about. The unity of mankind. And if we would look at the Articles of Faith of Muslims, I don't see that much difference between the Articles of faithful Muslims and the Articles of Faith for Christians. Articles of faith are to believe in G-d, to believe in the Angels, to believe in the Revelations, and to believe in the Prophets or Messengers of Revelation. And to believe in the Judgment Day. To believe, also in the Resurrection of the life after the death. I'm translating it literally, the Resurrection of the life after the death.
And to believe in the Qadr of G-d, the Qadr of G-d. That's a difficult term to translate, the Qadr of G-d. They translate it, some, predestination. Modern Muslim thinkers that I have the honor to sit with many times now, in my travel of the international world, they are not liking that translation, predestination. We have had another translation by Muslims outside of America, pre-measurement. And that hasn't satisfied it. So really, we have to explain it. We don't have a term to satisfy us. The Qadr of G-d means that G-d has created everything and that everything is intended to be good, to be good.
And I think that's the Bible. When G-d made everything, He said, it all was good. That's the Bible. And this Qadr means that G-d created everything and intended it to be good. But He wants the human beings to learn the correct approach to everything. And the wrong approach gives us the harm, the right approach gives us the benefit. That's the explanation of Qadr. They call it "Al Qadarua Hirai Wal Sharai Min Ata Ala", which translated into English is, "The Qadr of G-d, that regulates what good comes and what harm comes, it is from G-d Most High. It is from G-d Most High.
That's the Articles of Faith. And I won't attempt when I'm around people who don't know the theology, I do it. But I would not attempt it here, to give you what I call the resemblance of all of those articles, especially this Qadr. I won't not attempt to deal with that one, to show you the Qadr in Christianity. But for my soul and my heart and my mind, I found the Qadr in Christianity. I found it in the Bible, the Qadr. I don't think we have anything different from what you have. Not in terms of what we have as Articles of Faith or beliefs. You still might say, "Well, do you believe in Jesus Christ?"
We certainly do and we can't be Muslims if we don't. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Word from G-d. This is the Qur'an. That G-d says, in our Holy Book that Jesus Christ is a Word from G-d and a Spirit from G-d. A Spirit and a Word from G-d. And Jesus Christ, Peace be upon him, in our Holy Book was not born of a man. He was not born of a man. Born of a woman, but not of a man. The difference in our language regarding that mystery of Jesus Christ may be understood in this language. G-d says in our Holy Book, that He is not the father of any of our people, our men. G-d when He wants one from among us, He simply has nothing to do, except say "Be". He creates one. That He Creates one when He wants.
We think of Jesus Christ, Peace be upon him and his mother. We think of Jesus Christ as a special creation of G-d. Special creation of G-d. That's a sign, a mystery and a sign. He and his mother, mystery and a sign, as it is in the Bible. That's addressing the term mystery only. Now, so much for the description of Islam. I think that's the description of Islam for Muslims all over the world. That's the description of Islam. There's nothing more to give you, as a description for Islam. The Prophet gave no more when he was asked, "What is the religion?" And that's what he gave.
Now what I would like to talk about for a few minutes is, well I'd like to talk about Islam. But with an interest in having more people in America, especially people like you, people who will influence the course of things in this country. The course of your intellect and your accomplishments here at Northwestern, and your contributions that I'm sure will be coming from you in the form of books you will author or something and discussions on television. I'm really thankful to G-d to have the opportunity to speak to an audience like this, this very special audience like this. If you are convinced that I'm correct, then you will give us more accommodation in America. You will influence Americans to accommodate us just a little bit more.
We are still little uptight in America. And most of it is our fault, though. We present ourselves in an un-Islamic way too often. Yes. So the rules, what is rule in Islam? I love this democracy. The more I learned of this democracy, the more I came to love it. It satisfied something deep in my soul. I believe that it's from G-d. I believe that this form of democracy we have here is from G-d. I believe the great Founding Fathers, I believe they were inspired by Scripture to come up with this concept that we have, of freedom and democracy. And it's not the freedom that we know now today, that's so popular. I often say it's not "free dumb." It's "free dome" The dome here. Free that intellect. That's what it's all about. Freeing the intellect, not free the dummies.
Yes.
Rule in Islam. And I'm speaking now with authority from Qur'an, our Holy Scripture, from the Saints of our Prophet and from the learned scholars now present. Apparent learned scholars. I'm familiar with what they support, what they don't support, especially on these very popular questions or issues. And I'm giving you what is agreed upon. The rule in Islam is upon the collective body of people. We are all obligated to worship G-d in all of our life, in the whole of our life. That means, the political life can can't be separated from religion as it is for most of the world. It can't be separated from religion. It doesn't mean that we have to have some religious teacher or holy man in the seats of authority. Doesn't mean that at all. But it means that the people must accept that the word of G-d governs their life.
And I think that's no different for Christian society and America is a Christian society. We expect that the citizens of America will have the word of G-d ruling in their lives and the government will be an instrument, not G-d. So, we really believe the same there too. Yes. The thing is, the rule of G-d is upon the collective body of the people. We rule by what is called Shura. And the term is Shura. S-H-U-R-A. It's spelled the two A in the Qur'anic Arabic, in Arabic language, it's spelled with two a. But in English that's S-H-U-R-A. Shura.
And this term has to be explained by the Qur'an, in the text where it's found. Shura Baynahum. The expression is, Shura Baynahum. Shura, between them or Shura, with each other. Shura with each other. It's translated, consultation. That we must consult each other and respect each other as having authority to give us what G-d says, to give us what Muhammad says, to give us what's correct in Islam. And then we apply that to the matter at hand or to the interest at hand, to see if what we are discussing here is in conflict or not in conflict with what G-d has ordered. So, this is the way matters are handled by Muslims.
And Shura is not just for a religious body, shura is for a business body. We have a business group, a national business group, Collective Purchasing Group in America, in our community. And we have Shura, when there's some need for us to see if what we are about to venture upon is in line with Islam or not. If it has had any problem with Islam. We meet and have Shura and we discuss it to see what is best. And many times, it's not just to quote the Qur'an or the Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him, but this Shura can be in common practice.
The Qur'an doesn't even have to come into the picture. But we say, "Hey, let's have a consensus on this." And that's what it is. That's what the Shura is a consensus. Then let's have a consensus on this. Rule is by the consent of the people, the people. To me, this is right in line with our form of democracy. "And their orders are by shura with each other." That's the Qur'an, quote from Qur'an. Speaking of the believers, the Muslims, the rulers, the leaders in the Muslim society. Their orders are by Shura with each other or between themselves, consultation with each other.
And Muhammad the Prophet, Peace be upon him. He said, and I'm quoting him. "G-d's rule obligates the people collectively. G-d's rule obligates the people collectively, taken as a body." Muhammad the Prophet, when we study how it matters, he even put himself down with the people. Though G-d was his guide, G--d was directing him, he refused to take himself out of the body of the people and take himself into some higher realm, like he was above them. No, he still insisted to live with them on their level and to identify with them as a mortal human person, capable of making mistakes, who could make mistakes.
When decisions were to be made, often he would ask the most abled ones that was available to him. "What do you think about this?" He'd ask them for their opinion. "And what do you say?" If he knew one had expertise in some particular area, he would say, " so and so and so, what do you say about this matter?" And then he would look to the people to see how they responded to what that person had to offer. And if the support was strong and he felt comfortable with it, he said, "Let's go with this."
To me, that's the image of a Democratic leader, a Democratic leader. That was Muhammad who said, "G-d's rule obligates the people collectively." Now the expression literally, is "Yadulah"- "The hand of G-d is on the people, collectively." The hand means the rule of G-d. It says "Yadulahi Ala Jamai". If some of you speak Arabic, I'm guess, why I'm saying is for you. I'm not saying it to impress. Anyone speaks Arabic, raise your finger here, raise your hand. Yes, "Yadulahi Ala Jamai". You got it? You didn't? You're not speaking Arabic. Shway he said. Huh? A little bit, you said. Little, little bit. Yeah. I speak Spanish, shway shway, right? And I'm not really a conversant in Arabic. I know religious Arabic, the religious language. I can't pick up a newspaper and read it that well. Yet we are in the same shape.
Yes, Yadulahi, the hand of G-d, "Ala Jamai" is on the collective body of people. Yes. The rule of G-d is on the collective body. Now the next point I want to come to is Islam's appeal to the whole humanity. The universal appeal in Islam, the universal appeal in Islam. I think these are the most important features of Islam. It's Islamic democracy and its appeal to the common interest and aspirations of all people. Common interest and aspiration and common aspirations of all people. And that's where we see its universality, it's universality. Islam wants us to respect the good contributions of all people, the good contributions of all people.
When Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him, was sending his representatives to other lands to go and present Islam in other lands, he cautioned them. He said, "Take care that you don't undermine." I think it means, "Usurp the traditions of the people, the cultures of the people. Leave them with their cultures. Once they're reported in the Hadith Bukhari and Muslim, the most popular Hadith collections of Prophet Muhammad's sayings and what he did. Called ?adith. And in one of the books on Hadith, it's reported that the Prophet was coming to visit the people. And it was on the day of the Eid. Eid is the Muslim holiday. The Eid, the holiday of the Muslims.
And the people they visited, they hadn't seen these people before. And one of his companions was kind of made uncomfortable by music that they had. They had some music and some songs. And he brought the Prophet's attention to this. And he was trying to get the Prophet's permission to ask them not to do that, not to play the music and sing. And the Prophet's reply to him was, "Leave them be. All people have their traditions." That was his reply. And the students and scholars of the Hadith take that to mean, that Muslims are to be a multicultural people. And that's what we are. You go to Pakistan; you see them in their cultural colors and life. And you go to Egypt, you see different. And you go to Indonesia, you see even different. And you come here to America, and you see something quite different.
But see, when we study our Holy book the Qur'an and the teachings of Prophet Muhammad on behavior, and on culture, we find that the method is to insist upon, those who are responsible for keeping Islam correct. To insist upon the Qur'an being a purifier, an agent for the purification of the whole life. And that means for the cultural life, also. So, the Qur'an is seen as a purifying agent by the scholars of Islam that is in the culture to help that culture, support humanity, support the human nature in the most excellent way. So that the human nature is advanced as the creator G-d, our Lord G-d, wants it to go.
This is the belief that we don't have to address cultural differences. Just help the people understand the word of G-d correctly. And the word of G-d itself will be the purifying agent in that culture. And I often use some soap from Christianity to help my Christian audience, clean up their culture. I meet some dirty audiences, sometimes some very filthy audiences, sometimes. And I don't step back from them. I embrace them. Because I was born in a very filthy environment. In Detroit, in Chicago. The ghettos of Detroit and Chicago is where I came up. And I know what I had to live with all around me. And I know there's answers for that in Christianity. And it's good that we washed each other's feet.
Yeah. Now, yes. The Qur'an has universal appeal. It believes in the unity of man, the unity of man, as Christianity does and as Judaism does. All of us descended from one ancestor, so we're the children of one ancestor. And his wife, his mate. So that makes us one family. We believe in the family of man, like Jews and Christians. We believe in the family of man. With these beliefs, that to me are the most fundamental beliefs for the three great faiths. Often call heavenly faiths and Abrahamic faiths. This is how I'm hearing these religions referred to, as the heavenly faith. Christianity, Judaism, Islam. And the Abrahamic faith, Christianity, Islam and Judaism. And that brings me to mention the importance of Abraham in our religion, for us. I don't know just how Abraham is perceived in Christian theology.
I only know what the Bible says about Abraham. And what the Bible says about Abraham, Peace be upon him, is very similar, almost exactly, what the Qur'an says about him. Only the language, "Father," is used in the English translation. And in our Holy Book, it is Imam, Imam. And Imam means, "The one who goes in front of the people when they have service." That's all it means. The one who goes in front of the people, when they're having prayer. Prayer, prayer, prayer only, for prayer only. He goes in the front of the people when they pray in congregation. That's what Imam means, it come from a word that means "in front of." Amama. Amama is a common word in Arabic, it means "in front of."
I say, "Amami, you are in front of me." And "Amami," e, e, for me. Like in Spanish, I think. "Amami, you are in front of me." So, Imam is only a mystifying term when one of the Iranian Imams use it. I'm joking now. I'm joking. I'm only joking. Iranians are my friends. They're really a warm, good people. Warmhearted people, spiritual people. Deeply spiritual people, very loving people. I visited Iran recently and I fell in love with them. Like I did the Palestinians, Palestinians, very warm-hearted people. And I visited both of them. And I fell in love with them. And yes, sometimes among the most serious-
Sometimes among the most serious and well-meaning people, you'll find the most terrorizing radicals. And I think it's because this world being so astray from the excellence that G-d wants in us, it frightens them so and makes them see it as a big devil, big evil, big Satan, as Khomeni said, May G-d give him Paradise and forgive him his sins and give him Paradise.
Khomeni said that America is the big Satan. They're so frightened by the extremes that they see in the life of the people and how they seem to have no consciousness of duty to G-d. I think our world frightens them so much, it makes them extreme. They react to it and they become extremists. Extremists that want to get rid of us. Or kill everybody to make things right. So much for that.
Getting back to universalities. Islam also believes in evolution. Evolution. Not Darwinism, but evolution. The teachings of the Qur'an tells us that life, matter and life was first put here in a rough, crude, raw form. And G-d put His spirit and His will in His Creation and it is His spirit and His will in Creation that is urging Creation expressed as our taste for excellence or whatever. It's His spirit and Will in creation that's urging Creation to come to the great beautiful, shining finished product that G-d intends and that includes the human being, the human heart, soul, intellect, whatever. So, we do believe in the evolution of life. We believe that Islam itself, the Islamic community life is an evolution brought about by G-d through the word of G-d called the Qur'an, the Holy Book of Muslims. Through His book and with His guide, Muhammad, with His human guide, the model human for us, Muhammad, Peace be upon him, he brought about a community that is an evolution. It is an evolution.
And that language is used to say to us, remember your first life, your first development, that your first development needed the help of G-d. It was good. When you look at it in the baby, it's a good life. No one sees Al Capone in the baby that the mothers have. Just got into her arms, just delivered today, and she has that baby in her, there's no Al Capone there. There's no bad threat there. Nobody feels a threat from that life. That life is peaceful, loving, ready to be shaped in a good way by us. No rebel there, you see?
And when we look at the member of the faculty here, Northwestern University who's devoting his intellect, his heart and mind and soul to his work that he hopes will be passed on to others and they will benefit from it and get nothing but good and no harm. And he wants that for all mankind. He wants that for Asia and for Africa and for Europe and for the Islands and everywhere and America, everywhere. He wants it for everybody. We are looking at the product that G-d made. We are looking at the real human person that G-d made, you see. So, this is the way we believe, and that person is an evolved person, or we call it the second stage. The second stage creation.
I don't want to miss anything, and I do hope we can have some questions, but I don't want to missing anything that I have put here that I had to cover that I want. Yes, we're returning to the culture now. To culture.
I find that, and this is my concluding remarks, I find that in most of the Muslim world, there seems to be more, I would say conscious identification with culture rather than the teachings of the Qur'an and Muhammad the Prophet. The people are contained in their cultures more than they are contained by Qur'an and the teachings of our Prophets. And that's why most of us feel depressed in our souls when we think about the state of the Islamic world. And that includes the government leaders. In fact, we believe, and I mean the majority of the representatives of Islam that I'm privileged to sit with and discuss these things, we believe that there is no Islamic state on this earth today. That what they have is not Islamic.
Their form of government, how they rule is not Islamic. And more and more we're beginning to hear from our learned, the Ulema, members of the scholars in religion, America is attraction now for those who want to come and create an Islamic model. America is pulling them here. There's more freedom here for real Muslims than there is even in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. And I conclude with those words and I hope I have done a service and not a disservice, and I pray G-d forgive me for all my errors and my shortcomings and me. Thank you.
Speaker 2:
We do have a chance and time for questions. If you want to give preference to the students in the class. We wonder Imam Mohammed if you could start this off by telling us a little bit more about the diversity of Islamic communities in the United States and why it seems that we tend to lump the various communities under certain umbrellas and develop myths about Islam around that. If you could start from there.
IWDM:
We have leaders from the business effort here in California. And it seems the situation is better for us coming together, having healthy dialogue together. Bringing us all together to work for a better image of Muslims in America. Because there are a lot of misconceptions even among Muslims. There are a lot of misconceptions. A lot of Muslims don't have the right knowledge even of themselves or their own religion. So, we try to meet and discuss this. But we also here recently, we have found a need to look at our life in America to see if our needs in community life may be a factor or good opportunity for us to have some unity. So, I believe the unity, in Washington, the unity that will come, I don't think it's going to come from us trying to bring ourselves into agreement on what is Islam or what is the best way to live Islam. I think it's going to come because we need to have stronger support, financial support for our private schools, stronger financial support to build our Mosque.
Most of us have a handout, you know where it's at. It's in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Hand reaching way out over there in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. And they don't want to give you anything in the hand unless you're ready to let them take over your head. So, most of us, we don't look that way anymore. We're not looking to the Saudis for help, so we have to find that help right here in America. So, we are turning to each other and I think we have a National Business effort now in our community. And I think we have signaled in a lot of good developments even in the immigrant Muslims. Because we meet them now and we hear them talking about economic development and developing business so that business will support charities. We can't expect poor communities to build fine mosques and finance schools. Education is extremely expensive as you know. I can't tell you anything about that. You know how expensive education is, you're here.
So, we have to have business under people whose lives are given to G-d and to faith community life. We have to have such persons organized to develop business. And that's what we have done. To qualify to be members of our group, you have to first prove to us or it has to be proven to us by our knowledge of you that you are firstly committed to G-d. Not to making money, but to G-d. And that you want to make money so you can better serve G-d or have better religious community, you see. And I think this is the area where we're going to be able to come to some agreement and work together, cooperate together. And if we do that, if we strengthen our communities materially with our cooperation with each other, we don't have as much to offer them.
Even the Palestinians, they come here with a lot of business knowledge and business skills that we don't even have. The average one of us don't have it. So, we don't have as much to offer them in that area as they have to offer us, but we do have something special. And what we have special is confidence. We have confidence that we can succeed. And most of them, they're kind of afraid to invest in America or afraid to move ahead too fast in America. And we don't see anything with green lights. We don't think there's any red light on the road. So, we are different. And they welcome us because they like that. So, we are beginning to experience a little, I would say materialization of this need for us to come together for economic benefits in America, cooperate with each other for economic benefits and growth in America.
But I think that's going to be what's going to bring Muslims together. If we do that, then I think we are going to just naturally begin to respond to demands on us in America and we're going see a new culture. I predict, it may be long after I'm dead, maybe there'll be 10 generations after me, but I predict that Muslims in America are going to form an American Muslim Society, a Muslim American Society, and they're going to have a new cultural picture in America. It's going to be American-based but Islamically-purged with the soap of Islam. It's going to be a beautiful model of cultural life for Muslims in this country. And they'll still have their distinction, but they'll have also one cultural expression that'll be American.
And I predict that we all will have a common language and that language will be Arabic. Yes, the language is going to be Arabic. We have to say, "Well look, I don't speak Urdu, I speak English." And it's not going to be English only because we have to discuss Islam and to discuss Islam, we need Arabic. Qur'anic Arabic. So, I predict that we're going to have the common language of English and Arabic. They're going to be our common languages here in America. And we are going to have a natural culture evolve that's going to be Muslim American.
One more prediction. I predict that we are going to be among the security guards for the precious life of American people. They're going to welcome us to join the security guards. I'm already one of them.
Speaker 3:

IWDM:
Yes. Again, that position is not what Muslim scholars or authorities in Islam would identify as an Islamic position. They wouldn't identify that as an Islamic position. They would identify that as a Saudi position. A position of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. That's their position. Not necessarily the Islamic position. But however, there is a concern here that I think we have to know something about. And that is Mecca is not just another city. The closest I can get to the character of Mecca would be the Vatican, okay? The Vatican.
All right now in the Vatican... I have been there too, and plan to go back soon. I'm invited again, I'm going back soon. In the Vatican, they have Islamic studies. You can learn Islam there in the Vatican and they have free dialogue, free exchange and respect for the religion, for all religions there. That's what I experienced in my visit to the Vatican. And I can assure you that there is the growing circumstances for that also in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. In fact, they do have dialogue with Catholics and others right in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. There is opportunity to have discussions, free discussions with real genuine respect shown to the host or the guests. The guests and the host. Or sometimes the host is a Christian or Jew who's hosting these discussions.
But when it comes to actually having people practice their religion... Especially that's what we call the Haram, that's the sacred precincts for the pilgrims who make a Hajj. I think as liberal as I am, I have some uneasiness, when I think of maybe what I'm hearing down the street being in that area. Now some Christians are louder than others and if you open up to all of them, some of them are going to drown you out. So, when I think of just them opening up, it makes me a little bit nervous too. So, I think we should look at that. That the city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia, even Medina, these two cities, they are cities of the Haram, that means Sacred Precincts because of our Prophet living in Medina and having his home there, there is what they call it... No, what do they call it now? Just Holy places or Sacred places. I can't think of the other term for it.
It's not shrine. Shrine is not the term, but to me it's like a shrine. They have a sacred shrine in both those places and those Precincts are sacred and expect nothing but the people that belong to that religion, the people of that religion to have their devotional life there and to go through their rituals and devotions there, you see? So, I think it touches all Muslims and make them very uncomfortable when we think of Mecca or Medina opening up to have Churches and Synagogues or Buddhist temples and everything there. But you will find in other countries, Churches are welcome. Well, I don't say everywhere, but like Mosque, you're not welcome everywhere either. And that's just Mosque, you're not welcome everywhere.
But I would say that most Muslim countries, other religious houses are welcome. In Egypt, many beautiful big Churches there. I've seen them in Egypt. And the Iranians told me that they've lived with Christians and there's no problem. In fact, they're starting soon as a college. I think they've already started and broke ground to build it. It will be a college of Comparative Religion and they welcome Christians to come there and have a presence in Iran. They're inviting Christians to come to Iran and really have a presence there. The world is too small for us to be isolated from each other and the world will get better because of us embracing each other. Our Holy Book says, G-d had not made us different. He created us from one parent and then He caused us to be spread out throughout the world, to be sent out, spread all over the world and become different.
And G-d says, He did not intend that you become different so that you will despise each other or think yourself superior to each other. But He did it so that you would be curious and want to come to know each other so that we will benefit from what we discovered in the different parts of the world that we exist and from the resources that we have that we need to bring to one table so that we all have a better resource table for the whole planet Earth.
And this is what I believe G-d wants for us in Islam and this is the way He wants us in Christianity. And this is what He wants for us in Judaism and in Buddhism. And that's the way we are going. And I don't think these Sacred places should be seen as a hinderance for this great worldwide trend that we see, universal trend that we see. It's not going to hinder it. It's not going to hinder it. Mecca is very small and Medina is very small. The whole Kingdom of Arabia is very small. So just see it as a closet and we'll occupy the living room.
Speaker 2:
Imam Mohammad, in preparation for your presentation today, we watched a video on the Hajj, and we saw going to prayer, we saw both men and women.
IWDM:
Yes.
Speaker 2:
And there were questions about the responsibility of men to make the Hajj and an encouragement of women.
IWDM:
Yes.
Speaker 2:
We're wondering if you could talk a little bit about the gender differences in Islam and what the spiritual significance of making Hajj is.
IWDM:
All right. Islam respects the privacy of the home. And traditionally in the home, the wife is the most private of all the private concerns. So, we don't expect on the Jumu'ah day for women to be coming to Jumu'ah prayer. So, they're not encouraged to come to the Jumu'ah prayer, the public prayer service.
Speaker 2:
They're not encouraged, or they're not required.
IWDM:
But for Hajj, they are. For Hajj, the invitation to make the Hajj is for women and men equally. I don't see any difference. But something struck me when I made my first Hajj and the second Hajj and third has always struck me, that the men have to dress a certain way. Men have to put on these two big diapers. One up here and one down here covering ourselves and the women dressed in their normal clothes that they wear in their country, in their own land. So, I say, well I guess G-d is saying to men, "You know if the dress is messed up, it's your fault, so get back in your Pampers."
Speaker 2:
Any other questions?
IWDM:
Oh, by the way, sister.
Speaker 2:
Yes sir.
IWDM:
There is no backseat for women in the Hajj. No. If females are walking in front of us, we can't say, "Let the men come further." We can't do that. If females stop to pray at the prayer site, the station of Abraham, the Prophet Abraham, Peace be upon him, or any other place, if they're in front of you, nothing you can do about it. So, there you will see something altogether different than what you see in most of the Mosques and places. You see women in front of you everywhere. They're free. Free wherever they want to be.
Speaker 2:
Could you explain why is it this gender separation at Jumu'ah and at the centers when there's a public--
IWDM:
I think it's mostly influenced by culture and the best reports say that the Prophet never insisted that women sit behind men. He only insisted that they be separated. And I think that's good. I mean, I obey what is Islam, but I have my own opinion too, right? So, I impose Islamic authority upon my own opinion sometime, and I'm not comfortable. I'm submitting. I'm submitting with difficulty. But I'm very comfortable with this. The women, if they're to the side, or in a separate area, there's more comfort for me to devote myself to the prayers.
But if, now I'm 65, it's not as difficult as it used to be for me. But if you were bending over in front of me sister, I'd have a little problem. I'd have to ask for a different spot to pray. And we bend over in front of each other. That's how we pray, we bend over. So that's not good to be bending over in front with a woman right in front of you.
Moderator:
We want you to speak just a little more into the mic.
IWDM:
Okay.
Moderator:
And question. We have another question. If you could speak as loud as you can. Yeah, oh, you have another microphone, yeah. Okay, okay.
IWDM:
Okay. Thank you.
Speaker 5:
I didn't quite understand what you meant about the security guard being the security guard for the American people. Would you elaborate a little bit on that?
Speaker 4:
He jokes a lot.
IWDM:
What I meant was that I'm very serious about doing what I can to see that the precious life of the American people, as I believe that the Founding Fathers perceived the beautiful life that the Founding Fathers perceived for this great society. I'm very serious about doing what I can to contribute to it in a positive way and to defend it against those who will hurt it or take away from it.
Moderator:
Another question. Yes.
Speaker 6:
A long introduction, but you were speaking about the role that Muslims will be playing in America in the next coming years. And yes, and I've seen a lot of magazines and newspapers talking about how now that the Soviet Union has dissolved, the United States has gone beyond the Superpower that it is and have become a hegemony of some sort, this power that cannot be stopped. What role do you see America's power base playing for the Muslims? What role will American Muslims play in influencing the rest of the Muslims around the world now that the United States is becoming this unstoppable power?
Speaker 4:
Yes. Yes.
IWDM:
A real believer in G-d, devoted servant of G-d, which most of us are in this room. We don't like arrogance in any form. And I don't like national arrogance. I hate it. I hate national arrogance. And I would hope that we who dislike arrogance would have some kind of influence on the President and on this country to keep our country from going in that direction. And I think sometimes even if we have the opportunity to get more power and influence, if we have enough, I think sometimes we should say no to even opportunity to get more power and influence, say no to it.
So, I don't think we should become such a big power on this earth that we dwarf all other national powers. That shouldn't happen. I think we should be also interested in having other nations comfortable with us and for them to be comfortable with us, we can't tower above them too high and can't spread out too far and become too mighty. That's what I would hope that we would have working for us in this country. Even if we have the upper hand, let us restrain ourselves and humble ourselves in our greatness and keep the world safe and comfortable.
Moderator:
Let's open it up to anyone who has a question.
IWDM:
I'm sorry. He asked about Muslims. What could we do? Well, that's what we can do. Just what I said that I was doing it, instead of suggesting I was actually doing what I think we can do, that's what we can do.
Speaker 7:
I want ask kind of a multi-part question, but all the parts fit with one another.
Last Sunday, this past Sunday, another representative of Islam in America was present on this same campus speaking, the Honorable Louis Farrakhan. Two questions come out of that and then one that's kind of tailing onto it. One, he spoke of the meaning of the term Islam as submission. And I wonder if you would comment on your understanding the meaning of the term and submission and how that applies.
In our lunch conversation, I asked you the question of what is the appeal of Islam for African Americans? I mean, Brother Farrakhan's projection of Islam appeals obviously to a certain segment, and yet you have 10 times, a hundred times more in your version of Islam than he does. What is the appeal of Islam for African Americans?
And then thirdly, finally, is there an appeal, are you noticing any appeal in the broader American community beyond colored ethnics, beyond immigrants, beyond African Americans? Is there any appeal for Islam in the Anglo, the European American community? Kind of a multi-part question, but if you could speak to those.
IWDM:
Yes. First for the meaning of Islam. Yes, Islam comes from a word that is translated peace. But when a term is taken from the language of the people and then is used to communicate the word of G-d, the message of G-d, that term then takes on an additional meaning. It has original meaning and it takes on additional meanings. So, when we study the term Islam in the Qur'an, it means Peace, it means wholeness, completeness, it means Peace, and it means soundness. Soundness that is firm, that there's nothing. And it means nothing to disturb the peaceful nature of the human soul. It settles in your soul and your soul recognizes that it is good for the Peace of the soul. This is all those meanings are in Islam.
Yes, when The Nation of, I don't know about Mr. Farrakhan, this is not addressed, not directed to Minister. Farrakhan. But I know I was raised, born in the Nation of Islam and raised there. And I know what submission means in Nation of Islam. It means what the Gestapo would say when they say, "Hey, who's in authority here?"
It means obey the authority. That's what submission means. And that's usually a Captain or Lieutenant in the Fruit of Islam, the militant unit of men in the Nation of Islam. Now, as for the mixing, we are seeing a slow change of the, I would say, the racial or ethnic look of our community. We have a growing percentage of Hispanics and Whites, although it's very, very small. The percentage of Whites and Hispanics is very, very small. But over the years we see that is growing. And I would think in the next five years we might see a real presence of Hispanics and Whites among us. Immigrant Muslims are experiencing the same. They're getting people to convert to Islam from the White Americans and from Spanish Americans, and I think from some others too.
Now you also asked the third question. The third question was about the appeal. The appeal.
Speaker 7:
Blacks and Europeans.
IWDM:
Yes, yes. I think what accounts for the appeal in the Black community, African American community more than anything else, it is that in Islam, the spiritual life and the material life finds a place where they join and they're not in conflict with each other. And the emphasis is not only on soul and spirituality and Islam, but the emphasis is equally on, especially in this world, on human reason, the development of your mind, your responsibility to be, your responsibility to make intelligent judgments. They call it Rahi in Islam. It means, it comes from reason. The term means be to be able to form rational judgments, make rational judgments. So, this is very important in Islam. And with this, the belief that my whole life is to be expressed for G-d. Not only does my own life belong to G-d, my whole life is to be expressed for G-d.
So, a musician, a jazz musician, he hears this. And when he hears that the doctor who's performing the operation or giving the medicine and he has an interest in protecting life and helping life, that his act is a devotional act, and the carpenter or the painter, that his act is a devotional act if he's doing it with the awareness that G-d wants him to measure up to a certain performance. Excellence.
When the jazz musician hears this and he says, "This applies to me too." Now he is blowing jazz now and he's blowing it for G-d. So, I think this attraction is what accounts for more than anything else. It's not just the discipline. Most observers from the outside, they say, well, Islam is a religion of discipline and the Blacks, they're looking for discipline. So that's why the Blacks come to Islam. That's part of it.
The more important part is, that slavery, separation in this country, being rejected by all people, all people. There was a time when we had no people to call. We couldn't even, we weren't ET. We couldn't even call space. Yeah, so there was a time when we were cut off from every hope, but G-d. And I think that deep need is still in us. And when we find a place where we can say, well, G-d is the center of my life and I'm responsible to G-d and all of my life is for G-d, it makes us feel free for the first time. Spiritually free for the first time.
Moderator:
Other questions? Yes, Ma'am. Please speak up.
Speaker 8:
I guess I'm a little unclear on how your religion views Fard in terms of exactly who he was.
IWDM:
Fard, he was not an American, he was a foreigner. He came among African Americans or Blacks of Detroit, Michigan in the year 1930 or 31. And he's the one who put together the Nation of Islam idea, Black Nation of Islam idea.
To explain, to give you a better picture of him, or I would say a clearer picture of him. I think all we have to do is, if we can accept it, accept that what he created was something to serve the most desperate Blacks of that time in the ghettos and to appeal to the most desperate ones. It wasn't designed to appeal to W. E. B. Du Bois, who was in that time, or even to Booker T. Washington, who was more, or less a theorist and a more practical man. But it wouldn't appeal to either one of them. They would reject it. Because what he did, he gave them a myth, a reality that he himself formulated. He formulated a powerful myth of reality and he took everything that had been strong in the life of people, of Blacks and he gave it a new beginning, a new origin, a new nature, a new beginning, a new meaning.
So, he gave us a myth of the reality of G-d. He gave us a myth of the reality of man, Black man and White man, a story of the beginning of Black people. Well actually Black people he said had no beginning. That we came from G-d, we descended from G-d. But he gave us a myth of the beginning of the white people, white race. And he gave us a myth of the beginning of Creation itself, the origin of Creation itself. So, he just presented the whole environment of reality, including ourselves and another history and another story and actually called it history. He called it history. He called it the history of the world, the history of the world.
And he said, every 25,000 years secret Black authorities would meet to study the past history and rewrite a plan, the next history for another 25,000 years. That's what he told us. And I think of it sometimes now, and I say, "Wow, that man had some kind of imagination." Maybe he was on dope, but I'd just be joking. The Detroit police, local police said he was a drug addict. That's what they said. They charged, he was a drug addict. And they had a picture looking very much like the man that taught my father. But my father told us when we were children, he said, "See this picture they're saying that's our teacher." He says, not. See that man is not him. That's not him. But he looked, he did look, resembled the picture that we had.
But anyway, this man, I studied him. I studied his works. That's how I studied him. I studied his works. I've studied his works for years, many years. And I'm convinced that G-d has been with me in my studies, that G-d has helped me in my studies. And I've come to the conclusion that this man was coming in the role of a Christ figure, Christ figure. And he was coming in his interpretation of the Christ figure, his interpretation of the Christ figure. That he would come in the clouds, he would come in the clouds and he would come with dyed garments. He would come and will not be observed.
So actually, I believe this man was really a Muslim and perhaps a Sufi or a person influenced by Sufism. And he had good intentions. He thought if he could attract the Blacks who had not been converted to the American way, that they were still uncomfortable here and saw no future for themselves in America, if he could attract them, he could make a new American, African-American, a new Black people in America and then entice them, dangle Islam out before them, but not let them bite it, not let them get it in their mouth, just tease them with it. That one day when circumstances change, conditions got better, more normalized for them to exist in America, and they could have hopes in America that they would be interested to know, well what is this Islam, what is Qur'an? And it worked. That's exactly what happened. I went to the Qur'an and that's how come we have changed. We have changed the way we are now and we owe it to that man.
Moderator:
Okay. Muhammad, we have heard a lot about your father.
IWDM:
Yes.
Moderator:
And the contributions that he has made. But we've heard not as much about your mother, Clara Muhammad.
IWDM:
That's true.
Moderator:
Nor have we heard a lot about your relationship with Malcolm X, who also was moving toward Orthodox Islam.
IWDM:
Yes.
Moderator:
So, I'm wondering if you can give us some little tidbits of your experiences, both of what you remember about your mother, Clara Muhammad and the contribution she made to female activism within the Nation of Islam, and a little bit about your remembrances of Malcolm X.
IWDM:
Yes. The biggest, greatest contribution I see my mother making was her, I would say protection of the best of what came in the Nation of Islam. She was a very frank person. And if she saw us forgetting what was more important, she would call us back to it. Say, well, look, she'd say, "You're not being good boys." Or she would tell the congregation, "You all missing." She would say, "My husband", she called "My husband". That's how she referred to him. She'd say, "You are missing what my husband is trying to call you to." And she was just helping us stay with the best. And she was very loyal, very loyal to my father. When he was gone, it was just like he was present. In fact, when he came back, I think it was at ease, not at attention, we were at ease. When he came back, we could relax a little bit.
She was very strict, keeping us right, keeping us on the straight line, walking the straight line. But she also would risk having my father, well make her feel bad. Because my father, if he wasn't in agreement with you and he saw that was your position as a strong, he wouldn't leave you going until he knew he had broke you. You had given up that position. And so, she would really take risk. She knew that he could make her very uncomfortable, but she would take the risk. And she would say to him, on several occasions, I've heard her say, she say, "Honey," she called him honey sometimes. She said, "Honey, the school need some more typewriters. They over there and they can't use those typewriters. See, I went over there and the typewriters no good. If you don't give them some typewriters, I have to give them out of my own money. Can't we get them some typewriters?"
And usually he would say yes. But I remember one time he said he didn't have any money at that time for the school. And my mother went to school with her money and she gave the school money to buy some supplies that they needed, some equipment, some supplies that they needed. And at every graduation she would go to the school. Sometimes she wouldn't be feeling too well, but she'd be there with that beautiful smile. That black face in the big white teeth. I can see her now smiling, so happy at graduation time. And she would have something to give each graduate. Both boy and girl, she'd have something to give each graduate. And she stayed behind the school. And that's why we named the school for her.
And she was the one who protected our school when there was a chance that we would lose our schools. Because we had no license. We had no authorization from the State or from the City to have those private schools. So, the police came to our house once. And the police said, "You have a boy here." That was me, that was myself. Said, "You have a boy here that should be in school." And my mother said, "Yes." Said, "I know." She says to him, "He's in school." And he says, "Go get the boy." I was standing behind my mother at the door right then. My father said, when any stranger come to the door that we are to go with our mother, if no one is with her, go with her. So, I was standing right there at the door behind her then.
So big, red looked like, now that I look back at him, he looked like a big red Irish policeman. Big tall guy. Big heavy guy. My mother looked at him and he said, "You're going to have to put the boy in the school." And I guess he had seen me then I think I felt his eyes on me. He said, "You going to have to put the boy in the school." She said, "Before I let you take my child and put him in your school, I will die as dead as this door facing." She put her hand on the door facing. And I guess he said, "Well, here's a strange one here. I can't go any further with this." He left. We never heard anything more from them. I guess when he told them his experience at that door, they said, "Forget about that." They said, "Forget about them. They're small, leave them alone." And we were left alone, and we had our schools. So, we see her also as a person who protected our schools, so our schools would stay in existence.
As for my acquaintance with Malcolm. I remember the day he came, first day he appeared at the home of my father, The Honorable Elijah Muhammad. He had just got out of prison. He served a prison term. He was converted while in prison. His brother, the elder son of his mother and father, Wilfred, had been taking him literature. And another brother too, what's his name? Filbert, had been taking him literature too also. And he had converted already. He had been for a long time, he had been a convert of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and The Honorable Elijah Muhammad had promised him through his brothers that once he was released, he could come directly to The Honorable Elijah Muhammad and The Honorable Elijah Muhammad was going to make him a minister right on the spot, right at the time.
My father had studied his writings, his questions, his writings on Islam and everything, and he was convinced that he was ready to go right into the ministry from prison. And that's exactly what happened. Minister Malcolm came to my father's house and my father introduced him to us as his new young Minister. That's his exact language. He said, "This is my new young Minister." And he told us that he was going to be a great Minister and that was going to be a big help to himself. And he said he was going to be a big help to me, your father, and to the Nation of Islam. That's what he said. And that prediction came true. Ye
Yeah. And I remember Malcolm, he had a way about himself. Just a few words. My time is just going, I know I don't want hold you either. I know you got more important things to do than I have to do. Malcolm looked at me... I'm a teenager about, I guess about 16, 17 years old. He looked at me, he said, "What are you doing?" Said, "What are you doing for the Nation, Wallace?" He called by my first name. He said, "You the son of the Messenger?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "What are you doing for the Nation?" I said, "Well, I help out." He said, "You all got to do more."
The man haven't even gotten a letter from my father yet. He just got his father's word and this is my young Minister, and already, he's taking over. That was the kind of person he was and he was loved. His interest in you was very genuine. He was warm. He always wanted to see... And he never hated white folks. Although that was the belief that white folks were devil and evil by nature. Malcolm never indicated to me in any way that he hated white folks. He only hated the white folks that burned his house, and he believed that the Klan was responsible for killing his father. He only hated them. He hated individual white people, not the white race, and that he was very comfortable with white folks. I know that. And he had an interest in white students on the campuses. He said, "These white students on the campus, they need more help than we do." He said, "Here they are swallowing goldfish and trying to pile up in a phone booth and seeing how many can get into a Volkswagen." He said, "They need help."
Speaker 9:
We have a last question. Final question from....
Speaker 10:
You talked earlier about sitting down at the table together with people of other faiths, and I'm wondering if you have any suggestions about how to encourage that kind of dialogue, not just among the leaders, but among the people who practice different faiths.
Muhammad:
Yes. The world... G-d has caused man to grow and technology, transportation, everything has grown. The media has grown, and we are in that global village now. We're all in the same global village and we can't have a good future if the best of our minds representing our different faiths and communities don't come together. We have to come together to know each other better because we are living in two close of quarters now to not understand and appreciate each other. That's all.
Speaker 9:
Imam Mohammed, we very much appreciate your presence.
Announcer
For more on the ministry of Imam W.D. Mohammed, Muslim American spokesman, call or write WDM Publications. Call 1 (708) 862-7733. Or Write post office box 1944, Calumet City, Illinois 60409. For Muslim Journal, see local distributor. And thanks for listening.

