11/11/1992
IWDM Study Library
Unity Through Diversity

By Imam W. Deen Mohammed
Speaker 1:
This is W. Deen Mohammed, speaking at the University of Wisconsin and LaCrosse. The date is November 11th, 1992. The title is Unity Through Diversity.
Tracy:
Please help me welcome IWDM.
IWDM:
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Tracy. We always say, Assalamu Alaikum.
Audience:
Wa ?alaykumu s-salam.
IWDM:
It means peace be on you. We always acknowledge G-d. That G-d is to be acknowledged in all that we do, for the success of whatever we do. We acknowledge the G-d of us all. As in our religion, we're told... In our holy book, we're told to say that our G-d is your G-d and your G-d is our G-d. That G-d is one and one alone. One only.
IWDM:
We acknowledge G-d and we always trust G-d for the good results that we hope for. But also I would like to acknowledge the Dean of students, Ronald Shahid. I've been in touch with him all along, and he has informed me of your very good healthy atmosphere down here on this great campus of the University of Wisconsin at La-Crosse or in La-Crosse. I have also been made aware of persons that I feel actually to acknowledge, that have been supportive in having encouraged Ronald Shahid. They are Chancellor Judith Kuipers. Vice Chancellor Julius Erlenbach. Associate Vice Chancellor, Tom Hood. Pardon me. Mrs. Mary Rivad. Tracy Smith. Linda Thomas and all the others, we're very grateful to you.
IWDM:
I hope to speak for about 30 to 40 minutes, and I'm asking my associate behind me to just pull my coat a little bit when that time is up. Because sometimes I get into something and I forget the time. I forget to look at my watch to keep time.
IWDM:
I would like to begin by saying that the concept of unity in our religion is the focus for us if we're to understand how to promote diversity for American Muslims. We believe that because G-d is one, then everything else bears witness to that oneness that is G-d's creation. There is one scheme of matter, and you students understand that better than I do, I'm sure. There's one scheme of matter. The matter is diverse. There is one scheme of matter.
IWDM:
Then though humanity is diverse as one humanity, and the intellect for humanity is one, we believe that man has been created with one and the same human intellect. We have as a symbol for us the shrine or Qibla. It's called in Arabic Qibla. Also called Kabah, the sacred house in sacred parts of what we call Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia now. Our Holy Mecca. Sacred Mecca.
IWDM:
That qibla is always in our focus when we're making prayers. Again, when we set out to make pilgrimage to the Ancient House of G-d. I'm using the language of our holy book, Ancient House. Built for all man, that's what we were told in our holy book. That house was built for all mankind.
IWDM:
When we dress for that occasion, once we enter the zone called the sacred zone, we have to change this dress, our cultural dress or the dress of our people, our nation, and we put on very simple covering. In fact, we're exposed. Our arms and part of our legs, head, we are not allowed to cover except show the part down to the waist with one simple white cloth. And a second white cloth to cover from the waist down. A little below the knees.
IWDM:
We understand that ritual to mean that we are acknowledging that we all are one and the same creation, and that we all began with one and the same intellect and with one and the same human behavior. It is said by the Prophet of our religion. The Qur'an, that is. Muhammad, the Prophet. Peace be on him.
IWDM:
It is said that the Arafat, the Mount Arafat that we gather on during the days of Hajj or pilgrimage is the most important point in the pilgrimage in that holy sacred visit. Mount Arafat. I made the visit there more than once. My father, the late leader Elijah Muhammad, many of you would be surprised to know that in 19 late '58 or early '59, I believe it was the late '58, he made a sacred visit there. Not during the major season, the great season we call the season of Hajj. It was out of season.
IWDM:
When you go out of season, we call it Umrah. But nevertheless, it is the visit to that house. He made that visit. I wasn't aware that I thought the visit to the house and circling the house, going counter-clockwise seven times, I thought that was the most important part of the Hajj.
IWDM:
I was a new person in the knowledge of this religion when I made my Hajj. It was in 1967. It was only maybe 10 years or more later that I learned of our Prophet Muhammad, peace be on him, that he had said that ascending the little Mount Arafat and praying on Arafat and being there together on Arafat with each other from all over the world, different races, different colors, different cultures, the people with different cultural backgrounds, being there together and getting acquainted with each other was the most important part of that ritual. That great ritual that symbolizes the unity of mankind for Muslims.
IWDM:
I hope that I will in presenting what I have to present to you, that I will be also addressing your theme, which I identify with. I support. I feel very good about the new interests in our country America for the knowledge of each other's cultures around the world to be sought and acquaintances to be made so that we understand each other better, and in hopes of us being able to live and share this planet earth and survive all the other things that are threatening our survival. One of them being racism. Not just racism today on the white man's side in the white people's camps, but racism also on our side in the black folk, the black people's camp.
IWDM:
Now, I would like to just briefly address Afrocentrism. Afrocentrism. There's a lot about that I like. One of the spokespersons for that idea, he used to be my assistant. He was a psychologist and a black minded person before he became a Muslim. He followed the Honorable Elijah Muhammad for a few years before the passing of Elijah Muhammad and my coming into the leadership.
IWDM:
I came into the leadership in 1975, February. The day of our annual convention called Savior's Day Convention. This person, he was one of among few that have the title of doctor. At that time, we didn't have too many people. I recall years before he came in that we couldn't find a single doctor and could barely find one college graduate in the whole following of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad.
IWDM:
That is not to say that we were stupid people. We were stupid. No, we were not. It's not to say that we weren't interested in education. Most of us were. We were a curious people. Very curious people. Those are the people that the honorable Elijah Muhammad attracted.
IWDM:
This person I'm talking about, some of you might know him, of him anyway. Naim Akbar. He is a person that we identify now with this idea Afrocentrism. Promotion of that idea. Now, I respect him and I think that if we would go to each one of these apostles, our prophets, or ministers or whatever we want to call them of Afrocentrism, we will perhaps get a different idea from each one. That's what that is. I believe from Naim Akbar, we're going to get a lot of Islamic influence in his idea, if not Islam in his idea.
IWDM:
I would like to then to pick what I'm going to say in that light. That I know of that idea. I admire and appreciate something of that idea. But I have problems with the idea. Making Africa the focus for the unity of a black man should be a decent act. A decent act. To me, it's not decent to talk all about our past on the continent of Africa and not mention the glorious history for Africa that is Islamic.
IWDM:
It seems that most of these that I'm hearing, they make a point of ignoring Islam in that focus that they all want us to have as a condition or as a better situation for our unity. Africa is not all ancestor worship, as you know. It is 50% or better Muslim. And it has been Muslim for a long, long... For centuries. It is growing. Islam is still growing on the continent of Africa. Islam is not something that we should overlook or neglect or ignore in the name of some kind of interest in getting us all to have one single focus as Africans, or to have Africa as a center for our conscience.
IWDM:
Again, we don't have racial purity on the continent of Africa. We can no more claim all of Africa's greatness for a pure black people any more than all of Europe's greatness can be claimed for a pure white people. We children of Africa, and I'm proud to call myself a child of Africa, a descendant of Africa. We children of Africa are not any better off promoting the idea that are the children of Europe. Should they or should you, since you are here today, I should say, should you attempt to make Europe or Arianism? Your center. The center of focus for you for your unity.
IWDM:
The Chinese have also a past. A great past. A glorious past for them. An ancient history revealing vast and glorious empires. The Japanese were once giving divinity to their emperor. I recall as a young man during the war, the Second World War, I recall as a child what was being said of Japan and how they were viewing their emperor or identifying their emperor. But recently we have seen the Japanese, the government of Japan, the Japanese people, the emperor himself discontinue that act.
IWDM:
We have sincere voices and sincere people, African-American people I'm speaking of. Those are the ones who are giving us an idea of where we are now and where we came from and where we should be going. We have many who are not identifying themselves as Muslims that we respect and I appreciate. Among them is Shelby Steele, a professor on the campus, the University of California, who has written a book that is very popular now. It's a very good... A big seller. He addresses the change in our people that he's not pleased with and how he has been burdened trying to realize a better life for himself. Trying to be loyal to the black idea. And at the same time, loyal to the demand that is in his nature, his intellect, his moral nature.
IWDM:
I share with him that sense of the burden. That sense of the problem. I'm convinced that you're going to be hearing more and more of us speaking, and you'll be identifying us as maybe people who would vote for George Bush. It's too late now, but I voted for him. It wasn't my fault. I don't know how popular he's here with you. In fact, I do know, but I don't mind that either. I love people and I love to differ with people. But I have to.
IWDM:
I'm sure that you're going to be seeing more and more African-American leaders coming in a new form. Coming in a new spirit. Coming with more rational balance and less emotionalism and not tending to go to either extreme. To the democratic extreme. To the extreme of the Democratic Party. Or to the extremes of the Republican Party.
IWDM:
You're going to see a new African-American people who are not going to be treating the Democrats as though they are Christ on earth. And to vote Democratic is to support Jesus Christ, peace be upon him. You're going to see a new African-American people who are not going to be complaining so much about not having opportunity, but going to be complaining that we are not acknowledging opportunity and taking advantage of opportunity. This is what is told in a very scholarly way by Professor Shelby Steele in his latest book.
IWDM:
Also, you're going to be seeing Muslims in quite a different image. African or black Muslims that are not preaching so much to their blackness, but are preaching to their intellect. That will not be preaching so much to get African-Americans united physically or for some visible acknowledgement from the press or from the TV cameras, but preaching to bring together the best of our minds so that we can inspire and be a part of a new rising African-American intelligencia here, that will remember and go back and build upon what certain extraordinary minds were doing for us before the '60s. Before even the '50s.
IWDM:
Frederick Douglass, [Dubois, Booker T. Washington, and many others. Many noble women among them. In the later years, Benjamin Mays, and in great part, Malcolm X, for who's, pardon me, the credit that we give him, we know as people who lived that history that much of that credit is to be given to the man who inspired him, the man who equipped him to argue, to debate, to challenge, to criticize, Elijah Muhammad, the late leader of what is called the Black Muslims or the Lost-Found Nation of Islam in the building for North America.
IWDM:
Now, I hope I haven't gone beyond the time. In fact, I have a few more minutes. I have a few more minutes. That is wonderful. Now, I would like to also say that our religion I think encourages this diversity that you want. That you're encouraging. I believe when G-d says to us in our holy book, that He made us or created us nations and tribes that we should liter'arafu. Liter'arafu.
IWDM:
This Arabic language and Quranic languages is the Arabic language. It means that we should get to know each other. That we should become acquainted with each other. I believe that invitation from G-d and that warning from G-d, that we are not to see our differences as a reason to exploit it or take advantage of each other. But we have to see our differences as a cause for us to be interested in each other. To want to get acquainted with each other. To want to come to know each other. To want to learn of each other. To want to learn about each other. To want to learn from each other.
IWDM:
That is the purpose of the Hajj. To bring the Muslims from different corners of the world. From different cultural backgrounds. From different colors and races and nations. Bring us all there so we can learn of each other. Learn about each other. Learn from each other and go back home better equipped to improve our situations in our particular locale. That's what I believe.
IWDM:
I am an advocate now of this new interest in us being acquainted with each other's culture. Student exchange for the international community and all the rest. I support it. Thank you very much. G-d bless our good efforts and our good minds and our good people, Christian, Muslims, Jews and all. Peace be on you. Assalamu alaikum.
Tracy:
We now encourage, we open the floor for questions. There are microphones on either end. If you will go to the microphones on either end and we will take your questions and Imam will answer them. Thank you.
New Speaker:
While we wait on the question, I want to tell you that I really had a very interesting time, exciting time here on the campus. I visited your wonderful bookstore. I browsed around a little bit. I took a nice shirt back for my grandson, Kevin, the little dynamo we have back there in the house. In my daughter's house.
IWDM:
I got acquainted with your radio and TV interviewers. They are terrific. They're really terrific. I'm surprised we don't have a question. Anytime there's one or two African-Americans around, I expect to have some questions. Not only questions, I am attacked a lot. Excuse me. No questions? This is really surprising. That means peace is on us. Peace is really on us. I'm going to sit down and let somebody else-
Speaker 4:
[inaudible 00:23:24].
IWDM:
All right.
New Speaker:
Can you tell us what the difference between you Muslims and Minister Farrakhan?.
IWDM:
Yes. Yes. You ask me, could I tell you? I can. But I'm only going to tell you a little bit, I can tell you a lot, but I will tell you a little bit.
Speaker 4:
Well, could you-
IWDM:
But I'm only going to tell you a little bit.
Speaker 4:
Okay.
IWDM:
Okay. I can't tell you a lot. But I'm going to only tell you a little bit. We both followed the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. We both were his ministers. We both were friends in communication with each other often. We both have visited the different parts of the the Honorable Elijah Muhammad's community at that time together. We both sat with Malcolm many times together. We both were friends of Malcolm and we both accepted to change from the type teachings of the the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, when I came into the leadership.
IWDM:
Farrakhan supported me coming into the leadership, along with other national leaders all around the country. One day he came to me after about, I imagine it was close to two years. I know it was better than a year. He came to me and he said, "Something's been bothering me all along." I knew. I knew something had been bothering him all along.
IWDM:
He said, "I'm a burden. My spirit is burdened." He said, "I can't stay. You have discredited your father," he told me. He said, "You have discredited your father." He said that he had to go and do something about some of the members of the Nation of Islam who were giving up and going back to what we call a worldly streetlight. He said that one of them, I believe one of them, he might have said more than two, but I know he said one of them was in his family. His own child.
IWDM:
I told him I had no problem with that. I knew the Nation of Islam, and I knew that he was concerned that maybe the same kind of attitude toward persons that differed would be still in us and that he could expect maybe some bad consequences or that we would start slandering him or maybe even hurt him physically. I let him know, and I thought he already knew it. I think he did know it, but maybe he just wanted me to say it so he would feel at ease, that I didn't approve of such attitudes or such behavior. I told him that you can expect that no trouble will come from this side. I greeted him in peace. He left in peace.
IWDM:
The difference came when he went back and picked up the old name, Nation of Islam, and began to preach the same thing and the same spirit and with the same attitude that we had left. That I had left and many of us had left, and I thought he had left it also. That's when the difference came. But I have watched him all along, and I want you to know that, that's not all that I know about Farrakhan. I know good things about him too. Not to say that he's intelligent. You know that. Everybody knows that. That he's a person who can attract great numbers. Everybody knows that.
IWDM:
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about something else. I'm aware that he has a real curiosity too. And something is staring in his soul. He wants to know Islam better. He wants to feel more comfortable saying he's a Muslim. He wants to feel more comfortable with his perception of Islam. He has encouraged or allowed at least his members of his Nation of Islam to study Islam. To study Arabic language. My position is that we should wait and see. I'm not thinking that he's a threat or anything, like I used to at one time.
Speaker 4:
I have a follow-up question.
IWDM:
Yes.
Speaker 4:
I've listened to your father's words. I haven't had an opportunity to listen to yours.
IWDM:
Yes.
Speaker 4:
As a matter of fact, I've listened to yours.
IWDM:
No, you didn't. You just listened to a very small part of mine.
Speaker 4:
a small sample of your words.
IWDM:
A small sample. A very small sample.
Speaker 4:
A very small sample.
IWDM:
Yes.
Speaker 4:
Correct me if I'm wrong. When I say there is a contrast with what your father taught as opposed to what you're teaching, if there is or if there isn't, when did you move away from this philosophy and acquire your own? Or if there is-
IWDM:
Yes.
Speaker 4:
... could you-
IWDM:
I got the question. I've Yes sir. You made it very clear. I have. Yes. There was a great difference. Yes. I'm not preaching what he preached. I'm preaching something greatly different. But I have to tell you this brother. There's no way that I could have come into the leadership of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad's following without getting some real significant support from him to do that. I owe him a lot of credit for this new position. An independent position. For my coming into international World Community of Islam, joining Muslims all over this planet, I owe him a lot for that. Thank you.
Speaker 5:
I have a question of [inaudible 00:29:19]-
IWDM:
Yes.
Speaker 5:
You [inaudible 00:29:19] of Islam [inaudible 00:29:19]. I want you to say [inaudible 00:29:39] of Islam. [inaudible 00:29:39] of Islam [inaudible 00:29:39]. And you took them as being very rude against your own people who have Black people. I want you to say what you meant when you said you were [inaudible 00:30:02] all black people. Concerning your father, what did he say that he tried to help [inaudible 00:30:13]. The words your father [inaudible 00:30:18] was in fact [inaudible 00:30:20].
IWDM:
I didn't get that last part. The words were-
Speaker 5:
Okay. You said that the more you [inaudible 00:30:24]-
IWDM:
Stop. Stop.
Speaker 5:
... the more the words [inaudible 00:30:29] the way he treated you. I'm wondering what type of relationship you had-
IWDM:
I can't-
Speaker 5:
... [inaudible 00:30:36].
IWDM:
I can't recall that. My father never treated me in any way that would make me recall it with a sadness or bitterness. No. My father always treated. Even when he put me out of his organization, he did it in a way that made me love him and admire him even more. No. I can't recall saying something like that. It could be that something I said has been reported in the wrong way, you see.
Speaker 5:
Yeah.
IWDM:
Yeah. That's-
Speaker 5:
You're reading all this in the paper. It is [inaudible 00:31:06]-
IWDM:
Yes.
Speaker 5:
... [inaudible 00:31:11].
IWDM:
But there's some truth to the first part, what you've said. Yeah. But I want you to understand the circumstances that I was in when I was addressing that. Or the circumstances that I was aware of when I was making the statement. I never did, even when I was younger and supported the Honorable Elijah Muhammad with no reservation. When I say the honorable Elijah Muhammad,
IWDM:
His claims that he was the messenger of G-d and all of that. Because they taught me that from the cradle. When I came into my mother's arms, I imagine that's the first thing I heard because they were already believing in that and they were new. Very newly converted to that idea so they were very excited about it so they put that into me.
IWDM:
I came up believing that as a very young child. You tell a child in your arms those things, and the child is learning from you from the breast of the mother. Learn it before the child even goes to school. Believe me, my mother didn't allow me to go to any school. Not even a Muslim school until I was almost nine or 10 years old. She said that's what her instructions were. To keep me at home and teach me herself.
IWDM:
I believe in those things. But when I started to read what was said in the doctrine of the Nation of Islam that pretended to be Islam, some things just didn't agree with what my parents were communicating to me. My parents communicated me that I should have a sense of pride. That I should be proud that I'm African-American. Proud that I'm black. That was our language. That I'm a black man.
IWDM:
But we were also given a definition of black. We just didn't call ourselves black. We were told that me and other black man is an original Muslim, you see. We were proud to be black. When I was reading the lessons, reading the doctrine of the Nation of Islam, that it was a black man that created the white race for the purpose of dominating us. That's the teaching. That's the old teaching.
IWDM:
I said to myself, "This was a terrible black man." One revelation would send me off to another revelation. I just kept getting one revelation behind another, until I had to give up the whole idea. I said, "Well, as a religion, this thing has to be put aside." But as a program for economic growth, for economic business mindedness and for us and moral discipline, et cetera, it's great.
IWDM:
For social reform, for giving more attention to our families, to our mothers, respecting them more, being more responsible for our children, it's great. For wanting big farm lands and being productive, it's great. But as a religion, I had to put that thing down. I thank G-d I had the sense and the moral courage to do it. Yes, I would differ. I am different now.
Speaker 5:
[inaudible 00:34:20]. I'll make this one short. I want to know, I'm wondering why you and Farrakhan taking the same [inaudible 00:34:27]. Why are there any differences at a time when black African-American especially need leaders like you and Farrakhan [inaudible 00:34:35]?
IWDM:
Yes. Yes. I wish I could answer that question, but I'm hoping that Farrakhan will change enough in his religious ideas for us to work together and do things together. I still respect him. I still have him as a friend. I don't respect a lot of things that he does, but I still think of him as a friend. Right now, if he walk in the door, he would smile and I would smile. We would go on and greet each other. Most likely we would embrace. It's not hopeless. Yes. Is there another question there?
Speaker 6:
Yes. I just want to ask the question. I read the sound bite in the 6:00 oclock news] course, and obviously the sound bite is very short. Basically the only thing that they quoted you was where you had said that, "[inaudible 00:35:42] racism in America is racism in Europe." You mentioned the genocide in the death camps in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and just called it fad.
IWDM:
I called that a fad?
Speaker 6:
Yeah, I'd like you to elaborate on that.
IWDM:
No. I call it racism, as it's being promoted in America and in both... By both the extremists in the white race, and the extremists in the black race. I call that a fad that they... I explained what I meant by fad is something that's pretended. They pretend to believe in that as an excuse to misbehave. To do things that's below their human dignity. But doing it in the name of racism, that still gets some respect in their small circles. They can excuse their bad behavior. That's all I meant. Maybe fad is a word I shouldn't have used.
Speaker 6:
Yeah. It's context. The word fad for genocide.
IWDM:
But I see something. No. Not genocide. No. I see what's happening in Bosnia in a different light altogether. That's the Serbs. The Serbians. They are trying to get Christian support for something that they know is not Christian against Muslims. That's the way I see that. Thank G-d you Christians are better than those Serbians. I think you are. You don't support them.
Speaker 7:
Hold on a sec.
IWDM:
Yes.
Speaker 8:
Yeah. Before I came into this lecture, my interpretation of racism was just strictly a white thing. The suppression and segregation that the whites have done towards the blacks throughout history. You said that, in your earlier speech that whites have their racism and blacks have their racism. What do you mean by blacks have their racism?
IWDM:
I don't believe we were racist, ever racist until the Honorable Elijah Muhammad popularized his teachings with abled spokesman, Malcolm X, who chose to be called Malcolm Shabazz before he died. In fact, years before he died.
IWDM:
What the teacher of my father did, Elijah Muhammad did, was trying to show racist America, can I believe Europe to the white world, the [international world. That he could be just as good at what they were trying to do as they could. He reversed that psychology and used it to punish white people and use us as his instrument. There's much I can tell you about that man that's very interesting. I hope one day someone will write a book. That I will give them the information. Or either I'll write a book, maybe. Because it should be told. The man is a very interesting man.
IWDM:
He wasn't a mystic, but we call him a mystic sometimes. His name is called Farrad, but it's spelled F-A-R-D. He's in the encyclopedia in the history of the black Muslims. This man gave what was his own fiction that he created, but he gave it to the Honorable Elijah Muhammad as fact. It's called the Yakub's History.
IWDM:
He claimed that there was this black genius whose name was Yakub, who got an idea that he could graft from the original people who were supposed to have been all black. At that time, no white people. Only black people were there. Not even brown. No Asians. Nobody but blacks. He didn't call them African. He said we were populating the whole world. Only the black people.
IWDM:
This genius figured a way to graft the genes and reduce the black in the genes by one step after step. Took him altogether 600 years to do this. But after 600 years, he had completely eliminated the black in the gene and he produced a pure white people. In the process, he was at the same time feeding the mind of these grafted people, devilishment. Lies. Feeding them the diabolic nature. The result was the white race, are devil race by nature. That's what he taught us.
IWDM:
Now, I've given it to you in very brief language. That's what he gave us. That believe me, as quiet as it's kept, and it should be kept quiet because ignorant people get this, it can do a lot of harm. This idea has spread from the the Honorable Elijah Muhammad's very vocal ministers, to the Caribbeans. To Africa. Even in Islamic Africa.
IWDM:
I receive letters from persons in Islamic Africa, who were born in an Islamic environment. Believed in Islam, and now have changed and they are corrupting the idea of Islam with this man's idea. Fard's idea. Fard has produced something that's threatening to give numbers and popularity to a new racism on this earth, but not white, black. Does that explain?
Speaker 8:
That's to my understanding. Yeah.
IWDM:
Well, I know I do it really puts a lot of burden on your mind. Imagine what it's been doing to me all these years.
Speaker 8:
I just have one other question. What do you think of Spike Lee's interpretation of Malcolm X life? I think he's doing.
IWDM:
I haven't seen the movie.
Speaker 8:
... [inaudible 00:42:10].
IWDM:
I intend to see it. I also would advise people to see it, especially African-American people to see it. I think on the whole, it's going to have a good effect, not a bad effect. I think it won't feed the old racism of the Nation of Islam. Or give support to that as much as it will arouse curiosities to know what is Islam. In fact but in truth it will encourage the viewers to want to know more about the international Muslim community, not just what's happening in the black community in America. For that reason, I think the film is going to be positive.
IWDM:
Also, I think that the treatment of Malcolm though doesn't come anywhere near being a documentary. It's no documentary. It's a Hollywood movie. I think enough is going to be given of Malcolm's personality to make us feel good by watching it and when we leave the theater.
Speaker 1:
End of side one. At this time, please turn the cassette over to continue on side two.
Speaker 9:
My question concerns the Indian-born British writer Salman Rushdie, and his work with Satanic Verses. When Iran's Ayatollah Kheimani banned his book and issued a death sentence on him and the prize money was increased now very recently, , what was the Nation of Islam's reaction to it?
IWDM:
Our reaction was very much the same as what came from most of the scholars of Islam and from the Nations of Islam. Most of the Nations and scholars of Islam took the position that Islam is not a religion that forces anyone to believe. Even a Muslim, if he wants to change his mind about his religion, then he should have a right to do that. A person who slanders the religion as that particular person did, it's better to ignore them and let the world judge them, than to be bothered with them. That's my position. I think that was the position of the scholars and Nations of Islam.
Speaker 10:
Hi.
IWDM:
Yeah.
Speaker 10:
You present the idea that we all serve one G-d. I'm just wondering how you account for the differences between your holy book, the Qur'an and the Christian holy book, which is the Holy Bible. I'm wondering how the vast differences between the way G-d is described and defined in those books, how you can come to the conclusion that we serve one G-d.
IWDM:
Yes. Well, it wasn't easy for me to come to that conclusion. I had to study to come to that conclusion. I studied the Bible and I studied the Qur'an. I studied the best I could find of Christian theologians, and I came to the conclusion that we do believe in the same G-d. But I was already believing that before I studied. But I didn't understand it until I studied. I just accepted with some difficulty what G-d says in our holy book. He says, "Say to them. Your G-d and our G-d is one. One and the same."
IWDM:
The language of the Trinity is acknowledged to be a mystery. The language of mystery. If I ask any Christian, if they believe in the one G-d, they will say yes. If I ask them if they believe in the creator who made us all, who created everything and us, they will say yes. If I would ask them, is that the G-d, they would say yes. That's enough for me. The Jews say the same thing. And many other religions say very much the same thing. It doesn't mean we agree with the language of your theology? But we identify in worship that we all worship the same G-d. Is that satisfactory? If it's not, then-
Speaker 10:
I should give that a thought and get back to you.
IWDM:
Okay.
Speaker 11:
How was the Nation of Islam involved Malcolm X's death?
IWDM:
How is that?
Speaker 11:
How was the Nation of Islam involved in Malcolm X's death?
IWDM:
The leaders, not the Nation of Islam, but certain leaders of the Nation of Islam. Powerful leaders of Nation of Islam. Not all nationally based in Chicago, but some of them was powerful in their regions. West Coast. East Coast. Those powerful leaders were made to believe by one or two persons that started all that, that Malcolm was growing more in popularity than the Nation of Islam itself. That really Malcolm has started to drink the wine of his own popularity and he was getting a little tipsy and even thinking of replacing the Honorable Elijah Muhammad.
IWDM:
Now, that was the thing they were saying. Now, whether that was true or not, I'm not saying whether I believed all that or not. My knowledge of Malcolm tells me that he had no deceit or hidden intent until he himself saw his position, his credits, his leadership threatened by those persons that I'm pointing to right now.
IWDM:
They had ministers among them that were jealous too, and wanted to come into Malcolm's position. They wanted to be the national spokesman. They wanted all the attention that Malcolm was getting. The public, they don't know. Right now the press, they don't know that Malcolm wasn't the only articulate person. There were some others. They were terrific too. If they had been given the opportunity that Malcolm was given by the Honorable Elijah Muhammad to address the press, to get that exposure that he got, to be as popular as he was among the following, I'm sure some of them could have given him a lot of challenge and maybe even overshadowed him in time.
IWDM:
But what really triggered his death was that the words, the language they were using, they called him a Judas. They even used our national newspaper. At that time it was called Muhammad Speaks newspaper with a circulation of a million. It was the most circulated black paper in America at that time for a few years. They used that paper to picture him in cartoons with horns on his head.
IWDM:
If you understood how serious persons who were converted from a life of crime. From a life of self abuse. From a life of neglecting their family responsibility. From a life of despair even in religion. They had given up on religion many of them. Now they see this man as their redeemer. Their savior, Elijah Muhammad. Here is a man now attacking his person. They don't need much fiery language or incendiary language to come from persons in the hierarchy to incite them to do some physical harm to a person now threatening that man that they love so much.
IWDM:
What Spike Lee's movie, and maybe I think Spike Lee's movie will address this. But what we don't address when we're talking about the problem between Malcolm and the Nation of Islam is that Malcolm attacked the person. The private life of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, when he saw his national role threatened. His leadership threatened. When he saw that, he attacked the Honorable Elijah Muhammad at home behavior. Private life in his home behavior. That was enough to excite many of his followers to want to do him harm.
IWDM:
But the Honorable Elijah Muhammad had taught against physical violence that we shouldn't use... That we shouldn't carry weapons. It took persons and the top leadership to advocate or to give orders for them to do that violence. Because even though they wanted to do it, they wouldn't do it because the Honorable Elijah Muhammad said it was forbidden.
IWDM:
I'm not excusing their leaders. I don't think any one person can be blamed for that. A climate was created by them, their language and their attacks on the people. A climate was created for his murder or for his assassination. It was members of the Nation of Islam who actually carried it out. I met them. They acknowledged it. They acknowledged it to the courts. They were sentenced for it.
IWDM:
I met them while they were in prison because they told me that this person had changed their mind. They wanted to change their life upon learning what I represented. They were hoping that they could be accepted as Muslims again. I met them and they talked to me. They told of their part. I'm not speaking or giving you anything secondhand. I got this from the mouth of these persons who actually pulled the trigger.
Speaker 11:
Okay. Wasn't the reason that Malcolm criticized Elijah Muhammad was because he wasn't practicing his own teachings? Then-
IWDM:
Well, maybe that's the way it appears. But I know Malcolm was aware of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad's, what he revealed of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad's private life, he was aware of that before he got in trouble. He was aware that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, he had more than one wife before he got into trouble. I'm aware of that.
Speaker 11:
Did Elijah Mohammed order his death?
IWDM:
I just told you. I can't point to any single person.
Speaker 11:
Thank you.
IWDM:
Thank you. Well, I need another question now to make me feel better. Not one of the same type or same kind.
Speaker 12:
I want to know-
IWDM:
No more questions-
Speaker 13:
[inaudible 00:52:19].
IWDM:
Oh yes.
Speaker 12:
I want to know, how do you view the idea of the evolution versus the idea that G-d created man?
IWDM:
Yes. I believe just the way most Muslims believe, especially the scholars in Islam. The learned people in Islam. We believe that man was created as a human being. When he was first created, he was created a human being from the very first. We believe they way I think most Christians believe.
IWDM:
We believe that G-d created a human being, but we also believe that G-d's way is the way of evolution. That G-d's way is the way of evolution. We don't believe that the human being as we are today is the exact human being that G-d created when he first created the human being. We are only exactly the same in our potential, in our original nature and its potential. We are the same.
IWDM:
But whether we looked exactly like this, I couldn't say. I don't know. Whether we had the ability we had now. I would think that our ability was much, much smaller. Much smaller. I think our accomplishments were much smaller. I think we were like any other form of life. In biology, we know life evolved from simple form to more complex forms and to more useful and productive forms. I think that has been the same for man's creation. This is the way I believe. I think most Muslims scholars would see it the same way. Yes sir. Yes.
Speaker 14:
As the first Muslim leader, black or otherwise to address the United States Senate just this year, it is my hope and prayer that this is a precedent that will begin a trend that will continue for well into the distant future. Have there, may I ask, been any other invitations from-
IWDM:
Yes.
Speaker 14:
... the United States Senate or any other national governments around the world for you to deliver a similar address as you did in Washington?
IWDM:
No. I've only done that in United States. But I have received four invitations so far and two of them are answered. The one in Washington and the one in the home state of my mother and father, Georgia. I got a very, very good reception there in Georgia. It almost brought me to tears.
IWDM:
I'm also aware that Siraj Wahhaj, he's an Imam that's not in my association, but he's African-American. He has also given the invocation for the Congress. I do believe we expect that this will be a ongoing thing now. I would encourage Islamic teachers or Imams to accept the opportunity to go and give the invocation. Because our government is not to be a government just for one religion. Our government is a government from all the accepted religions and all the accepted cultures and people in this country. If we don't accept that opportunity, I don't think we're helping that great idea.
Speaker 14:
It's my hope you [inaudible 00:55:43].
IWDM:
Thank you very much.
Speaker 14:
Thank you.
Speaker 10:
Hi. It's me again. Your last answer to the question, I liked it. It was heading in the right direction. I guess I need to specify a little deeper on my question-
IWDM:
All right.
Speaker 10:
... to get to the root of it. The Holy Bible talks about G-d manifesting himself through the man, Jesus Christ, as a payment for our sins through a sacrificial death. He claims, the testimony of the Bible claims that Jesus was the way, the truth and the life, and that no one comes to the father but through him. Now, you see Jesus as a man, a prophet, but not the son of G-d, and Mohammed, the prophet as well.
IWDM:
And not the son of G-d.
Speaker 10:
And not the son of G-d. With that difference in mind, I guess this was focusing my question as to how do you see that?
IWDM:
Yes. I referred to that when I said that we agree in the belief in the one G-d, but we differ when it comes to how we give language to that idea. The Trinitarian idea is a language that is supported by a belief in the mystery of Jesus Christ, et cetera. That's all I want to say. I love Christians and I want to live here with Christians, and I trust my minority group to Christian leadership in this country. I hope that one day they will trust us too.
Speaker 10:
Thank you. I hope so too.
IWDM:
Thank you.
Speaker 13:
You've got one more question.
Speaker 15:
You've got one more question.
IWDM:
Oh, I'm sorry.
Speaker 16:
Can you take one more question?
IWDM:
Yes. I'm sorry.
Speaker 16:
Okay. You seem to be a very open and accepting religious leader, and I was just wondering if you could share with us how you arrived at this inner peace and bringing people to this openness. Also, if you could share... Give those of us in this room who are convinced that our religion-
IWDM:
If your parents raised you to be truthful, when you think you were doing something that's false, it bothers you. I think too much secrecy becomes evil. I think to be silent when you have something good to say, something that will make a better situation for yourself with other people, I think you should speak and be open.
IWDM:
The text of our holy book, one of the names for that text is openness. G-d says in our holy book that he didn't reveal it so that it should be given in secret or hidden. That it should be preached openly and clearly. Well, when I read that, it satisfied my nature. Maybe I've gone even beyond what the Qur'an wants in being open. But I'm happy with it and I feel my conscious is at ease. I have no problem.
IWDM:
I would say again that the holy book, the Qur'an, it also tells us that if we have something, because the Holy Qur'an doesn't address every problem. And it says that. It addresses the important things. It says that if we have something that's bothering our hearts, then leave it alone. Don't act on it until it's not bothering us our hearts until it's not wavering in our soul. That has helped me. All of that has helped me.
Speaker 13:
[inaudible 00:59:26].
IWDM:
All right.
Speaker 17:
Yes. You were saying earlier that you don't believe that G-d created man. Do you also believe that?
IWDM:
I believe that G-d created man. Everybody. Everything. No.
Speaker 17:
Well, you just answered my question because I wanted to know if you believed in the doctrine of heaven and earth?
IWDM:
Yeah. Everything.
Speaker 17:
[inaudible 00:59:48].
IWDM:
Everything. Everything. And we should love everything. I like what the Bible said. When He step by step as he was creating, and He himself testified. G-d testified. It is good. It is good. It is good. That's what I believe. G-d created everything good. Even alcohol is good. Drugs are good. Sex is good. All that's good. It's the abuse of anything is bad. I'm going to quit right now.
Speaker 1:
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