11/11/1997
IWDM Study Library
Islam On Race and Racism University Of Wisconsin, MI

By Imam W. Deen Mohammed
John Ramadan:
Lecture titled "Islam's Perspective on Race and Racism: Inferior Versus Equality", was recorded Thursday, November the 11th, 1997, on the campus of the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee. The lecturer, Imam W. Deen Mohammad, Muslim American Spokesman, and now Imam Mohammed.
IWDM:
Thank you very much. Thank you, praise be to Allah. Thank you. We greet you with peace. We say (Arabic - as salaam alaikum) means peace be unto you, or peace be upon you. It is the Muslims greeting, peace. We are called Muslims, and Muslim also, the term Muslims also is derived from the word peace, and our religion is Islam, and that word too is derived from the word peace. So with all of this peace in our names, it's a shame that we are thought of as being terrorists and people who love violence. We do not love violence, we love peace. Our presentation tonight is on Race and Racism, and the reason why we chose to have both of these terms in the statement of the topic is because we believe that the big problem with race relations come from us going to extreme. Those who have racism and want to keep their racism, they go to one extreme to show that there is a race that is superior to the other.
And those who would like to correct the problem and have people live as brothers and sisters in one human family, most of them go to the other extreme and don't give the true picture of the problem. The problem comes from mistreatment by one people or another. And the problem also comes from the lack of awareness in most of the advocates of racial harmony, that man has been created to have a sense of pride in his family, in his group that he belongs to, not just himself, but in his group that he belongs to. I have many Muslims, Muslims, Imams, or you would say religious ministers, preachers, and also scholars in the religion who seem very uncomfortable with me and saying that we are given a nature by our creator that wants us to feel good about ourselves as a group or as a race. So I believe that G-d created us for race pride.
I believe that G-d created us for racial dignity, for racial dignity. I believe that when G-d says in our Holy Book that we have certainly made honorable, or worthy of honor, all the children or all the sons of Adam, G-d is not speaking of us only individually, but G-d is speaking of us also as groups, that G-d intended for the white man to feel good about being a white man, but he also intended for the black man to feel good about being a black man. Now, that's the problem we have to work on. We have to work on showing the one single picture for all people, which is the most important picture for each of us separately. That is the human picture, because if we get out of the human picture, then we are worthless to humanity. But as long as we stay in the human picture, we have the first picture and the best picture.
G-d makes me believe this. I'm a religious man, as you know. G-d makes me believe that, I'm a student of science too. G-d makes me believe that when G-d says that I am the one who made your picture, He didn't say pictures in the Qur'an. He said your picture, single picture. I am the one who made or who gave you your picture and I made your picture most excellent. This is what G-d said. In our Holy book, in the Qur'an, "I am the one who gave you your picture and I have made your picture most excellent." That's the human picture. That's the human picture that G-d intends for us. He made us to be human beings, aspiring to be better and better all the time. This is the human spirit. The true human spirit in us wants to be better and better all the time.
So G-d made us and He gave us that single picture. But G-d also says that He gives us our picture also in the wombs of our mothers, meaning that He gives us also our separate pictures. He gives us our separate pictures. My picture, your picture, my race, your race, these pictures, G-d is the one who gives us that picture too. But that picture wasn't made in heaven.
The first one was made in heaven. Yes, the first one was made in heaven. The human picture that G-d intended for all of us was given to us in heaven. We were in heaven at that time. G-d created us, formed us in heaven. The human, the human picture. But He gives us these distinctions, these distinct pictures. He gives us those while we are in the wombs of our mothers, He says. That means here on earth, on earth. He gives us these pictures that distinguish us one from another. G-d says, the most honorable of you, say He didn't do this so that we would stand over each other, raise our ............ No. Said He did it so that we would be curious and want to get to know each other.
If we can imagine the beginning of this human family from one man and his mate, and something happens over a period of time, that is no more one man and his mate and his children, but members have gone far and wide, all over the earth. And they don't even know that they exist. The members in one quarter of the world, they don't know the others exist. It wasn't until men became great vessel builders, seafarers, and got upon the ocean and successfully went to one continent, from one continent to another, to the other, that we really discovered our one family. The same G-d that made us one and made us one family and made us put us in unity with each other, the same G-d intended that we should be separated from each other and that the descendants should develop distinct looks, distinct appetites.
Don't tell me you have the same appetite of every other human being. You don't. Distinct appetites and even distinct spirits.
See, I'm one who feels very comfortable accepting that I'm not like everybody else. I'm not a humanist that said we have no difference. There's some great differences. I don't even smell like you when I get tired. We smell a little different. So I recognize this. I recognize these differences. We do have differences and these differences have become our second nature. G-d gave us the first human form and the first human life, and then we take on these differences and we come into a second nature. So we have natural differences too. Humanly speaking, we don't, but individually and racially speaking, we do. We have natural differences. Well, I think we need the help of these campuses. We need the help of the Department of Genetics and Social Studies and Anthropology. We need the help of these departments on these campuses to help us look and recognize our oneness, our sameness, and also recognize and accept our differences.
Accept them that they are not differences that make one superior to the other. They're differences that attract us to each other. They shouldn't repel us. These differences shouldn't repel us. When we study magnetism, it's the north pole that attracts the south pole. It's difference that attracts, not likeness. And G-d says that He made us different, that we will be attracted. We're drawn to each other, be curious. We want to know each other. Look how wonderful it is, how wonderful G-d's plan is. He put the black on the continent of Africa or let them develop there. That's their continent, the blacks in Africa. The European white, like the snow in the north in Europe. Yes. We're black like the ground in Africa. Environment, right? Environment, natural environment. You go look at the man in the sand. He's somewhere between black and white. He's not black, he's not white.
Sandy environment, he looks more like the color of the sand.
Speaker 3:
Yeah.
IWDM:
Asians, Middle Eastern people. Yes, a lot of sand over there. I've been over there. So G-d did that. And we come up with these distinctions, features too. Science has helped me to understand these differences. G-d just says to us to observe the colors in the plants and in the animals, and in the stones, plants, animals, minerals, observe the colors in the plants and in the animals. And in the stones, how in the top of the mountain, you'll find the whites of white in the stone and you will find raven black. That's the expression from Qur'an, from our Holy Book, and you will find raven black all in the top of the mountain. And G-d speaks of these colors and he said, likewise, it is for your colors. In other words, G-d is saying before modern science told us, G-d is saying that is no mystery how you got your colors.
You got your colors just like every other thing, like the physical creation got its colors. You got your colors. If you want to know how you got your colors and what come you look different in color, then look at how plants are different. Study how plants are different in colors. Study how minerals, stones are different in colors. Study how the animals are different in colors. There's also an evidence that we have for this particular reasoning that I'm giving you from the sayings of our Prophet Muhammad, (Arabic) the peace and the blessings be on him. That's a traditional salute to him.
One man came to him and he was loving his wife, but he was kind of fearing something. He told the prophet to look at my children, how these look like the rest of them, and they look like me. But this one, he stands out. He doesn't have my looks. And the prophet told him, say, "Don't you raise animals?" He said, "Yes." He said, "Don't you notice sometimes one comes out not looking like the others?" He was happy. He said, "Yes." And he went back home and rested with his wife. This is a fact, I have a daughter, she's so light-skinned that I've had women that wanted me to leave my wife, write me sneaky, ugly letters. You know that's not your daughter. Wanted me to suspect my wife. Yes. But I knew better. What I'm saying is that these explanations for these differences are best given on campuses like this campus, the University of Milwaukee, they're best given on these campuses.
It should be understood scientifically. That's how it is to be understood scientifically. There were writers during the early 60s who wrote on the problem of race. And one of them wrote a book, he authored a book, "Race in the Democratic Society". Perhaps some of you are my age, you're younger than I am.
Some of you are in the audience my age. You might recall that book, Race and the Democratic Society. Boas, something Boas, the last name. Anyway, this writer was explaining the differences scientifically. And he, this writer says, even the broadness of the African person's nose is explained scientifically. Says to get enough air in a hot and humid environment, you require more volume per breath because the air is humid, it's heavy, and you need more oxygen per volume. So the nose opens up since there's no danger from cold, the nose freely opens up to accommodate a bigger volume of air per breath.
Now, the explanation for those that Europe who have sharp noses and small openings, slit like openings, he said, "That is to protect them from taking in too much air at one time because it would be dangerous. The danger is in the freezing. The cold will reduce the temperature too much for them in their head and in the nose, in the head, and the lungs, and the lungs, that it would be too much of a shock effect if they took too quickly and too much big a volume of that air in. " So nature of G-d, the creator desire the nature to close the opening, and you know you find yourself doing that? I know I do. I've been in some cold weather. You find yourself putting your hand up here or doing something to keep too much air too quickly from coming into your nose.
You just naturally have that protection, that sense of protection for yourself. So that's how it's explained.
Those who picked up melanin and keratin, these words from the same writer, they picked up those words and started building theories, some kind of theories showing that the black man is black skinned because he has keratin in his pigmentation and the white man doesn't have this. He's missing this. How is he missing something he didn't need? So don't say he's lacking. He got what he needed for his environment and you got what you needed for your environment. Yes. So we tend to fight racism with a reasoning that pretty soon puts us in the picture of the racist, and that's just what has happened. Now we have African Americans, vocal African Americans
when they're speaking, you're wondering, is that the advocate against racism or am I looking at another racist? You begin to wonder. We step in the position of defending ourselves, defending ourselves. And I used to be a boxer. I still think of myself as a boxer because once you're a cyclist, you're always a cyclist, even though you don't have what it takes anymore to get in the race. So I tend to think of myself as a boxer even now. But I know when you're boxing, when you're fighting somebody, you cannot concentrate on being on the defensive. You got to concentrate on winning, not on being on the defensive. Then you're on the defensive when you have to, and you are defensive when you have to. You can't concentrate on being on the defensive part of me. You have to be concentrated to win. That's what you have to concentrate.
Concentrate to win. And as long as we were concentrating as a people to win, we made success. We made success. The early leaders of the Freedom Movement, when you study their preachings, when you study their writings, when you study their position that they took, they weren't taking a defensive position. They were taking a position to win. They were appealing to the intelligence of the white race. They were appealing to the excellence of the American people, to shame them out of disgracing their own excellence. They were appealing to the excellence in African American people saying, "You don't have this opportunity. The freedom is not here, but G-d created you for this freedom. G-d created you for these opportunities. And once you're free, then you will be a great people. You will be able to rise up in this society." That's what they were ... Mamas who didn't have education were telling their children that.
The leaders for our people were telling the people that. They weren't on the defensive. They weren't saying, "We are superior to you, are you superior to us or anything like that. " No. They were pointing to the direction for the best human life and trying to reconcile differences and wake up consciousness so that we all could have good life in this country. And that's where we have to give back. So I don't like these extremes that say I'm not to care about myself as a black man. I'm not to have any particular interest in black people. I am.
I'm a family man. No one would tell me I'm not to have any particular interest in my family. I also have a family that's a little distance away called my ethnic family, my racial family. If I neglect it, my soul won't be satisfied. G-d has put in my soul to want to respect my family and also my ethnic group, to want to see my family in a good picture, and also to want to see my ethnic group in a good picture. Today, the professional class of African Americans have more of a race problem than the average African American person or citizen of this country. Why? Why is it?
Those who are diagnosing our case on these college campuses, I'm not going to give the name of any one of them. And now they are saying one reason for it is that these individuals, professional people, male and female, have realized a lot of progress for themselves as professional people. But when they run into a problem that they identify as a race problem, they're not supported by the white race, or they are not welcomed by white people for some reason. We have to understand that there are reasons for this. We have to look at our growing up as a race, the same one racial family, human family, and the different racial groups in that one race family as siblings. We all are siblings. Now look at a family in the household, one household, one parent, and you have siblings, sibling rivalry, you sometimes fight and you sometimes get a bloody nose right at home in the house.
But when we come out here, we think it's abnormal for a white person to not to want to speak to us today. Hell, I don't want to speak to some of the members of my family in the morning. It's because of the way we get along with each other sometime. We overcome it because we have to live in close quarters, but if some of us can move out, we would have been gone before we got grown.
So this is all nature. It's all natural. We shouldn't be trying to, making a big issue, a big deal out of what is normal, the human behavior. I pulled up on the pump in Little Rock once, and this has nothing to do with Little Rock. I pulled up on the pump, and I got out of my car. I spoke to the gentleman. I said, "How do you do, sir?" He looked at me as if to say, "Are you insane?" And I realized that I might have been expecting him to be happy. I don't know what kind of problem he had, but I have enough experience as a person who studies race. I had enough experience not to say that white man was racist.
He could have been angry with his wife. He could have been burdened with a problem. I could pull up the same punk with him and ride at the same pump with him weeks later or a few days later, and I might say, "Hello." He might say, "How do you do, sir?" Now, we understand this at home with a family, with our own family, under our own parents, but we can't understand it out in the public, that somebody may not want to speak to us today and it's not because we are black, but it's because they ain't got time and they don't feel like speaking or they've been bugged to hell, didn't get no sleep last night. They don't want to be saying, speak to you. They need you to get away from them. Leave me alone. What I'm saying is don't identify every problem as a race problem.
Most of those problems are not race problems. That not an indication that this person is a racist, just human problems. That's very important to recognize.
Getting back to our distinction, race, pride and human pride, pardon me, and racial pride. We should have both. I insist upon having both. In fact, most of the problem of inferiority are a filling of being denied that is an African American, especially in the professional class. It's because we have made so much progress in this country for freedom and equal opportunity. I'll tell you, any black man tell me he's not free in this country? I say, "You're a liar. You are free. You are free." Yes, you are free. No one is keeping you out of anything.
This world is competitive. G-d says to us in Qur'an, and now we're getting to another problem that's mistaken for racism. Here we are, poorer 'n' hell, and ain't interested in getting anymore, and we think we ought to have a house next door to the rich industrialists. That would be a freak of nature. That ain't the way we have created to evolve naturally. No, that doesn't happen. So G-d says to us in our Holy Book, G-d says, "Don't expect the rich to give wealth to the poor so that the poor become equal with them in the wealth." I thank G-d for that revelation.
I thank G-d for that revelation. Yes. I want to know what's real for me. I'm tired of dreaming. I'm tired of fantasizing. I've inherited dreaming from my people and fantasizing. I've inherited that from my people and it keeps me in misery. I want the light on and I want to see what is real for me. And G-d says, "Do not expect the wealthy to give wealth to the poor so that the poor become equal with the wealthy in wealth." Don't expect that it ain't going to happen. G-d didn't create the world that way. Where would the room be for charity?
G-d has created us too with the spirit to be charitable. If everybody is going to be equal, where's the room for the expression of human goodness, human kindness, human compassion. G-d has made some people to have more than others so that there'll be room for charity and room for compassion and room for intelligence because it is intelligent to share with those who don't have if you have. So we have to understand the scheme of G-d, how G-d has made everything. And I don't want any Arab scholar, Imam, know it all, Qur'an authority telling me that I'm not to give African American people, and this is not to play upon, and this is not to get any special attention from you, African American people. I'd be just as happy in an Irish family because I am essentially human, number one first and lastly, I'm human.
Yeah. So if G-d had made me white. I jumped right in the hell out of here, buddy - quick!
Each people should be working to number one, see that every member in that family, race or whatever, values their human identity over their ethnic or racial identity. Because G-d created us in heaven with the human identity. And if we get back there, we're going to go in because we still got that human identity. Not because we are strong racially, no, but because we are strong in the human nature and in the human excellence that G-d created us for. So every people should want to see its people firstly standing firmly in the excellence that G-d created for them, their human excellence and being proud of that. Feeling a sense of great worth because they are human! The great accomplishments of the different races, the Asian, the European, the African. We have, in fact, I was just listening on radio the other day and this man was talking about medicine and was tracing medicine not back to Greece, but tracing it to Africa.
Greece and then Africa, and many other wonderful things that he said that have come out of the continent of Africa that have benefited the modern world so much. That made me feel good because I came out of Africa. Yes, my people came out of Africa. You may look at my face and think maybe I'm Arab or Asian, but don't look at my kneecaps, baby. You see? My kneecaps will tell the story.
Yes. So we have to feel good about our race too. But build, start the first pride and the last pride is human pride, pride in your human excellence. Then next will be your ethnic pride, your race pride or your ethnic pride, and let us become better informed and more comfortable with this so we can get rid of racism. Believe me, if we have that balance, we can eliminate racism in America and all over this world as a problem. It won't be a problem. We'll have human problems, but it doesn't have to be racism. Thank you very much, and I hope I have contributed something. Peace be on you. (Arabic - as salaaam alaikum)
Moderator:
Thank you very much, brother, Imam, for that excellent lecture, address. And we had asked that if anyone could write their questions down on a piece of paper and just pass them forward. Has anyone done that? If you have questions on a piece of paper, please send them up. Now, if you don't have your questions, if you weren't able to get your questions on a piece of paper that have provided mics here on either side of this podium, and please feel free to approach the mics.
IWDM:
All right. Well, I don't have these in the order that I received them. They've kind of gone out of that order. But here's a question about ethnic family, ethnic family and this person is white. Well, what we would call a white person, as we classify people in this country, you would be white person, I guess, in most countries perhaps. Turkish. And he is saying that ... Well, maybe I should read it so that I'll do justice. What does Islam say about your ethnic family? I don't feel any ... This word, attachment. I don't feel any attachment to my non-Muslim friends.
that are the same race that I am, Turkish. I feel more correct, connected, pardon me. I feel more connected to Muslims. Isn't that what the Muslim Ummah is all about? Human identity should come first. That's true. That is correct. But I have to say that I do feel something. I know the difference between my Muslim African American friends and associates and my non-Muslim friends and associates. I know a difference. It doesn't mean that one is necessarily more important to me than the other, but it means simply that I know the difference. There's a difference and I know the difference. Muslims should never judge the worth of anybody by their color or their ethnic group or distinction. We should not judge the worth of anybody that way.
Some friend of mine who is not black or not African-American will be more precious to me than my African-American friend. Maybe be the best friend I have. Nothing's wrong with that. We judge people by their real worth, not by their color or anything of like that. But to say that I don't recognize the difference, there's a difference. My family may not measure up to the family next door. Maybe the family next door in my eyes are more worthwhile. Maybe I see more value in them as a family than I see in my own family. That doesn't stop my own family from being my own family and from being closer to my concern than my neighbor's family. So we should naturally feel comfortable with our people. And if you didn't, you wouldn't stay with each other. We don't have Turkish people moving into our neighborhoods. We don't have other ethnic groups moving among us.
We have them moving to themselves. Some of you are ashamed of that. I'm trying to bring normalcy to this society. Some of you are ashamed of that. You shouldn't be ashamed of that. That's natural and normal that you want to live with the people you know best. You want to live with people who speak your language. You want to live with the people that you know best and have a life, a tradition, generations with. You want to live with them. That's natural and normal. And any of us who want to get away from that in the name of Islam, Islam that you understand, some definition of Islam that you have, you are fooling yourselves. You're really deceiving yourself. The world is not going to be that way. The world is going to be the way it is. Only thing you need is understanding. We need education.
We need understanding. We need to live the best of our religion so that we will accept that G-d made us distinct and G-d made us to be with each other. I've never been an integrationist. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad had his reasons for saying separation. I don't believe in imposing separation upon people either. Don't force them to integrate and don't force them to separate, to be separate. Let the natural good instincts and urges and aspirations decide where we live. I wouldn't feel bad toward my daughter, my sister, my brother, or my son or my daughter, if they chose to intermarry with another race, I wouldn't reject them. I would love them still. They'd be my daughter still. They'd be in my family and I would treat them fairly still. But I'm not going to encourage that because that's not the acceptable way.
The acceptable way is that we care about each other and want to live with each other. The worst thing you can tell black people is that they're free to intermarry with some other people. We haven't intermarried successfully as a group with our own self yet, and I can say that about some white folks too, I know. So whereas I share the brother's logic, I'm not sharing his sentiments. I share his logic that we are firstly human and that's most important. But the sentiments that we shouldn't put emphasis on ethnic identity ... And he asked me, where is it in Islam? Where's the ethnic? Where is the ... Here, let me seet it again. and it starts..... What does Islam say about ethnic family?
When Islam says that G-d made us different like this, it's saying something about it. And if Islam says to us, "Go you all in a race toward all that is good." G-d is recognizing our differences and telling us to compete, but have a healthy spirit of competition. Don't compete with each other upon any feeling of hostility or any feeling of animosity or any feeling of jealousy or envy, et cetera. But compete with each other in the feeling, pardon me, upon the spirit of faith in G-d and obedience to G-d and the desire to contribute excellence and share it with all people. Wouldn't this be a beautiful world if all of us could accept that? Let us care about our differences and let us compete to give the best service to mankind, to ourselves firstly. Charities start at home in Islam and goes abroad. Allah says, Allah says, "Family has priority" in the Book of G-d.
So I'm to take care of my family first. Doesn't mean I'm rejecting anybody else, but take care of first things first. Your baby at home is first, not my baby across the water. Some African Americans, they get drunk on this love for everybody and self-sacrificing. You get drunk on that, you adopt a baby out of India and you got one next door that's almost dead because of neglect.
Now I know you didn't ask for all this, but I can't help it. Can you explain Islam's concept of leadership? Well, I don't know. I know one thing. I can explain Islam's concepts of authority. G-d is the number one authority. All other authority is qualified under G-d. The next authority for us is the word of G-d and the messenger to whom that word was revealed, Muhammad. The next authority would be the most excellent among us, following in obedience those two authorities. Those who follow, obey G-d and they obey His messenger. Those who follow it, do that best, they qualify to be over us, next in authority. Do you recognize yourself as a leader? No, I don't. I recognize myself as Wallace D. Mohammed, called also W. Deen Mohammed and Warithudeen Mohammed. That's how I recognize myself. These people recognize me as a leader. I'm not worried about that.
Say, there are many others that are saying they're trying to teach your word, but why don't they just say Islam's word? Because you don't say Turkish word. You don't say Arabs. Pardon me. Islam word. You say Arab's word too. You say Islam word and Arab's word. You say Islam word, and Turkish word, Islam word, Pakistani word, Islam word, an Egyptian's word. Give us the same respect, please. You got people among us that are afraid to say Imam W. Deen Mohammed is their leader because these people are working on them to make you feel that you shouldn't have a leader. Telling you you shouldn't have a leader just like trying to convince you that you shouldn't have a head on your body. You should cut your neck. You should cut your throat and take their head off your body and put their head on your body. Wouldn't that be a freak?
This is good. I can't get apart. I can't get away from this. What should be the Muslim American university students focus on campus? Finally, a straight innocent question. What should be the Muslim students focus on campus? The Muslim student focus on campus should be to look for, if he's in the leadership, if he's in the leadership or she's in the leadership, like your vice president, we met a female, Muslim leader here tonight. If you're in the leadership, you should be looking for opportunities to work with others or to support others in the same goodness that your religion asks you to support as a Muslim.
Whatever Islam asks us to support as a Muslim, we are not the majority. We are the minority here. And even if we were majority, we should still be looking to see how can we embrace the others? How can we join forces? How can we support each other in what G-d authorized us to be all about or to support? That's what I say your focus should be on the campus. And qualify more and more to know your religion because the more you know your religion, the better you know your religion, the better you are able to live your religion and benefit from yourself, benefit from it yourself, and the better you are able to embrace others in their excellence.
Someone wants me to elaborate on the Ansar, Bilal and the companion who was the first caller of prayer, to elaborate on him. Well, I appreciate your question, but for the sake of time, I won't do that. Just go to any good Islamic library or Islamic bookstore, and you can get many books on Bilal. He has nothing to do with race and racism. What? Oh, I thought you were handing me something else there. Okay. Where is this? We've gone over all these? Oh, the women's dress. Could you please give the ruling for what's a women's dress? Many women Muslims show their necks and ears.
Whoa. And many wear pants. Sometimes tight. I don't want to be there with that sister, especially alone. Allah commands the women to let their veils fall over their bosom. That means ... What is this? That means ... Oh, that means a scarf. The scarf. Mandeel. That means the scarf that on the head, big scarf, throw it over the bosom. And women were commanded to wear ... hijab. hijab. Or is that something else? Look like it might be something else. hijab? Clothing, covering, covering the entire body. Much in the way of the blanket. Blanket. To cover each other much in the way of the ... Well, I understand what this person is saying. Okay. Perhaps this person speaks 12 languages, but have difficulty with English. That's understandable. We know that can be because we speak one language and have difficulty with that most of the time.
Okay. Yes.
What is said here is true. And that is that the Muslim woman is always to be modest, not in tight pants, modest, decent in her dress, not following the fads of this society. And the Muslim woman is to be covered up from head to ankles, to the foot. The prophets, this is accepted by the scholars in Islam. Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be on him. He said permissible to expose in public for women is only the face and the feet and the hands. Face, feet, and hands. That's the answer. Yeah. Yes. All right. So we're going to now recognize the mic here and ask the questions into the mic. Although we have a handful of papers here still.
Guest question:
Yes, sir. As salaam alaikum. (Imam Mohammed - walaikum as salaam) You mentioned family and ethnic. I would like to ask how is it that Abraham's sons Ishmael and Isaac are perceived as separate by all the three major religious faiths? And is that some kind of explanation for how the Jewish and the Christians and the Muslims see Isaac opposed to Ishmael?
IWDM:
Ishmael. Yes. I believe I understand the question. The question is this, that it seems that the Jews and the Christians disfavor Abraham's son, Ishmael in the Bible called Ishmael, Ismail in Qur'an. and don't treat him as they treat other sons of the prophet. Is that it, brother? Yes. He said yes. Okay. That's what I understood. Now, I'm a student of the Bible also, I'm a student of the Bible. And I'm aware that the Bible lifts Isaac up and accepts Ishmael, but puts him down a bit. Bible. So I can't blame this on the Jews and I can't blame it on the Christians. It's in the Bible.
So we have to understand that the Bible is not accepted by Muslims as a pure and unadulterated book. And those Christians who know the Bible, know its history, they too recognize that the Bible has undergone translations, interpretations, et cetera, and that the Bible does not have the original purity. They recognize that. And they train students of the Bible to know what is important and what is to be followed and what is maybe not important for them to follow or to base their life upon. So this is the Bible, whereas the Qur'an is believed to be a pure book, not adulterated, not changed at all. So what I'm saying is this, that the Christians who have the Bible in their hands, if they have that impression, I can't entirely blame it on them. Allah says of the people who have headed up these translations, these interpretations, et cetera, that they have written things with their own hands and said, "This is from G-d." I believe that the Bible is a Holy Book.
I do believe that.
It doesn't change my belief that the Bible ... I believe the Bible is the Holy Book, and I believe that the purity of the Bible is more powerful than any errors or mistakes that have come into it. That's what I believe after studying it myself as a student for many years now. So don't take my criticism to say that I don't have respect for the Bible. I do. And that I don't believe the Bible is a Holy Book. I do believe it's a Holy Book, and I do believe it can give people guidance and motivate them into better life. I do believe that. And I do believe that the purity overpowers the impurity, though the impurities are there. And I could, as a student of the Bible, I could show you in the Bible where those prophets and messengers of G-d saw the impurity coming and they predicted that impurity was going to come, and they even predicted that an outrageous impurity would be in the Bible one day, because they knew what men were doing with their own hands and saying it was from G-d.
So there's much to say. There's much to say. Doesn't mean that we don't have respect. We do. So I accept that if I want to know the truth about Ishmael, I have to read the Qur'an for that truth. And if Christians want to know the truth about Ishmael, I suggest to you, read the Qur'an. It'll help you get over what's missing in the Bible.
2nd Guest question:
Okay. I heard you mention human pride and race pride in order to grow-
IWDM:
Yes, human pride and race pride. That they both are
2nd Guest question:
Legit. That we need to grow as a race. Do you think that we need our own independent schools as a race in order to grow? Because that'll help us grow as a people to end race, when you say I believe that we need to have our own independent schools or own different education. But then again, I look on the other side, multicultural education is another way of stopping, you know what I'm saying? Overall, where we can all learn about different people and different races because now education is so based on European history.
IWDM:
I understand.
2nd Guest question:
We don't learn about our history, other history.
IWDM:
I believe I got your question.
2nd Guest question:
Yeah.
IWDM:
I believe I got your concern very clearly before me. Okay. Yes. Now, again, Islam teaches us to avoid the extremes that take us away from important things that G-d want us to be attending to. So in this society that we live, we live in a society that is plural. We live in a plural society and we have a system, a public school system, yes. And we should not give all of our attention to the effort to have our own schools and neglect the system that takes care of the great majority of the citizens, and we will have to depend on that system too, no matter how much we do to provide the needs to our own, some of us will have to depend on that system. And I believe we should want to see that system strong and the best it can be. So I don't think we should work to have all of our children in our private schools.
I think we should work to accommodate as many as possible for us that'll be practical for us, accommodate as many as possible, but to keep before them, the benefit that we can get when we qualify students from elementary school or from high school or from college, from university, we have a university, (Arabic - Insha’Allah), that they will also be able to go and get further knowledge or go and get further experience of training outside in some other schools. So we have to realize that we are distinctly Muslims and we are distinctly African American Muslim, and also we are citizens of this country. And I don't want us to forget that we got a benefit coming to us as citizens of this country. We want to get everything that's coming to us as citizens of this country and we want to help this country be better, get better.
And we want to at the same time build up ourselves so that our dependency doesn't make us look odd. And right now we are too dependent as a people on the system and on others. It makes us look odd. We haven't succeeded as a group. They're saying now that the Oprah is going to be a billionaire pretty soon if she's not already. She's very close to being a billionaire, Oprah, who hosts a show. She's the most terrific TV personality hostess in the history of television in this country. She is. She's just outstrips everybody. She's very wealthy, very wealthy. That speaks for an individual in our race. But when we look at the neighborhood where the group picture is, it's a shame. So we'd be stupid as hell as leaders if we didn't advocate us being conscious of our need to come up as a group and do something about our condition.
That's my appeal to you brothers. And that's a serious one. Life and death one. Yes.
2nd Guest question:
Yes. Then-
IWDM:
So we need both. We need both.
2nd Guest question:
You saying we need
IWDM:
Both. We need a lot of work done to provide private schools for our people.
2nd Guest question:
You know, but you mentioned public schools and that's a good point. It's just not the education in there. It's not for African students. It's too based on European education. I believe that a multicultural education starts at a young age because, see us as older people, I don't know, our minds is default. It's wrong. Because the racism is reality and we see it every day. So I think what you do is you tell the children at a young age, you let them know that you teach in multiculture, you teach this stuff in elementary school and that way they grow up knowing the right way instead of seeing their parents where they was roles. You know what I'm saying? And because in public schools, this is European education history.
IWDM:
That is a concern. That's a real concern. I agree with you. That's a real concern. I agree with you there. But it shouldn't be one that stops us. That's not a concern that stops us. We still, Asian comes over here. You think he doesn't have cultural shock? You think he doesn't feel alone. He comes over here and he comes, he goes to these schools, same public schools. He goes to the same college, same high school, and he excels. Why? Because he doesn't depend on the curriculum to give him his picture. He brings his picture to school. And he's proud of his picture. That's what I want us to do. We don't need them to teach us African American history. Let us teach African American history. Thank you.
Moderator:
Thank you for your patience. You see we have a bunch of questions here and Imam is trying to get through them all and if G-d wills. So I would like to now ask that no one else besides this young man here come up to the mic because we have a bunch of questions here still to be answered. And to keep, please, we appreciate the brother's commentary and it was very excellent, but please restrict your statement to a question and not a comment or a commentary. Thank you.
IWDM:
Yes. If I may, before the next question, if I may, I want to bring some information that I've recently got. I was reading a newspaper in fact. And this newspaper, Chicago Newspaper, Chargo Tribune, reporting a finding by an independent group that studied the performance of African Americans in college and non-African Americans in college. Their conclusion is that African Americans, though they come in deficient more so than whites and some other groups, some Asian groups, but they say that the study shows that African American students on the college campuses and the universities show a greater margin of improvement, achievement for the time period that they spend on the campus than the other groups. And they said that's proof against racist theories, racist theories. That's what they have come up with. Well, it's not important to me that it's any proof against some racist theory.
What is important to me is this, that we come in behind others and that motivates us to work harder to catch up. So we got something going for us. So don't let anything dampen your spirit or discourage you. Let's keep pushing our children to go for more and more knowledge, go for more and more education, go for more and more skills, go for more and more achievement in this society. And believe me, when you push your people down or you put a people back, you work against yourself in the long run because G-d has made us to have a spirit to work harder when we're behind than you have when you ahead and you can't change that.
I'm waiting for the next question or either I'm ready to tell you the time has ran out, has run out for the pace.. Animosity, another ... I don't know whether these glasses help me or not. These are not my reading glasses. It might help a little bit. Okay. Okay. I see it. I think so. Yeah. If I understand this, does animosity toward another race or of another race come from one having trouble identifying with their own race? I think so. I think so. Most of the real ugly hatred we see in whites, I do come from, I think come from more from jealousy, resentment than it comes from anything else. And that jealousy and resentment is there because they see themselves inferior, behind.
I think so. I think that the question has a lot here. I think there's a lot of truth to that, but some of it is indoctrination. Some people are indoctrinated to hate. So one thing wouldn't explain it at all. Some whites are indoctrinated to hate blacks, to hate Jews, to hate Catholics, to hate this, hate that, hate Arabs. And some of us are being indoctrinated now to think ourselves superior to whites, to want to look down upon the creation of the white man, look down on it as an inferior creation, to secretly exalt, to privately exalt ourselves as a special race. So we are buying this stuff and there's work going on to indoctrinate the members of the congregation to believe that so fanatically, so strongly and so fanatically that they think they're doing it in the name of G-d, or they think they're doing it and they're morally right.
You see? So it's not one thing, it's more a combination of things. And I think most of the answer would be that people want to indoctrinate others and make them racist, and people just have human, human shortcomings, and they give in to jealousy, envy, et cetera. And they start seeing the other person as a problem when themselves is where the problem is. I agree with both.
That's why G-d says don't envy, one of the worst sins is the envy in other people, be jealous of somebody else. I say, when we'll know when we are really free, when we can do justice by the white man and acknowledge his achievements and save the achievements of the white race and feel at ease, comfortable in our hearts, that's the day we'll be really free. So what do you have here? Was I in opposition to the Million Man or the Million Woman march? Well, I was in opposition to the Million Women watch because I'm male and they were female, but I was opposed to the Million Man March because I thought the makeup of the leadership and what brought that all about or initiated that interest was the very elements that was going to make it fizzle out and be of no account for the future.
And what have we benefited? Just what I suspected has happened. It hasn't benefited us. And I think they realized it too, because the Nation of Islam, Minister Farkham, he asked that they all observed the day of whatever was atonement. It sounds so Jewish, I have a hard time coming up with the word, the day of atonement at home, not to go outside of their cities, but to observe it at home. So that's what I suggested before they even went on the march. Yes, I'm on record. I'm on record. I'm on the major network for saying that it would accomplish more. They would accomplish more and spend much less and have more money to spend on the needs at home if they would not go to Washington DC or someplace else and do whatever they had to do right at home.
All the cities need to see that. Yeah. So they did it for the day of atonement. What is this other one? This one here? That's heaven. What is heaven? Created from. Oh, how do I define heaven? Heaven. Heaven. Heaven, yes. Heaven. Oh, heaven is lofty, loftiness. Heaven is loftiness. Heaven is being above racism. Heaven is being above jealousy of another race and et cetera. Animosity for another people. That's what heaven is. Heaven is having your soul free from the shackles of ignorance and greed. Yes. And G-d created us in heaven. The first creation was in heaven. That's the human creation. I could say a lot more on that. I almost wanted to preach. I did get started. And what point do you reciprocate? Abstaining. Obtaining riches. I'm not sure I understand this question.
What's been ... I'm not sure about ... I understand what you're saying at what point does the rich reciprocate or at what point does the poor reciprocate? Well, if I understand reciprocate, it means give in turn, doesn't it? Yeah. Now, I would say you have a need on both ends to reciprocate. The poor have a need to reciprocate the rich that have carried them, and the rich have a need to reciprocate the poor that they got rich upon. Did that answer the question for you? Some degree? All right. What's this? Okay, so let's get this one out too.
Okay. Yeah. Okay. He said two more, so we will go two more. What do I think of Farkhan? What kind of leader is he? Well, I'll tell you one thing. Don't try to get these answers off of television because it's showtime once he gets on television. Now, I believe that more than anybody else in America today, Minister Farkham, is giving the wrong image of Muslims to the public. But I know, just like there were many in the leadership of the Nation of Islam when Malcolm and the Elijah Muhammad were together, working hard together, there's good people, innocent people, also in the leadership and also in the following of Minister Farrakhan. This world is so complicated. Racism is so complicated. Finding yourself and being comfortable in America and being confident in America as an African American is very, very difficult. It's not easy. So I can understand innocent African Americans coming to the call, answering the call of the Nation of Islam to unite for yourself and do for yourself and to take pride in your own creation above others.
I can understand many of our people coming to that call as they did in the time of my father. So I tend to be at one and the same time, looking at Farrakhan as my enemy and also looking to him as a leader that's a product of a situation that we have in this country, a product of a situation that we have in this country. And if I could have patience with my own self when I was following Nation of Islam, if I could have patience with my brothers and sisters that were also following it when I was there, I should have patience also with the following of the Nation of Islam now presently. I have patience with them. I call them from what they're doing wrong and I urge them to stop what they're doing wrong, but I don't want them to think that I'm their enemy.
No, I'm not their enemy. I'm their friend. I want them to become better Muslims. I want them to know more about Islam. I want them to respect the religion of the Qur'an and to respect the Qur'an, first of all, the word of G-d and don't shame us by saying things about Islam that's not true. That's what I want. But I have no dislike for them as persons. I have more sympathy for them as persons because I used to be in their position myself. And I do believe that in a way, they're not helping the real Islam, or hurting part of me, the real Islam so much, they're helping it.
Certainly they are giving the wrong picture, but who's helping them give the wrong picture? The media. The media is doing this. Okay. That's an opportunity for us to demand that the media give us a chance to equal time to present the right picture. Maybe Allah wants it this way. Maybe G-d of heaven and earth wants it this way, that they get this opportunity to give the wrong picture so it will awaken us more to our responsibility to demand equal time on television to give the public the right picture. So this might be a situation for the greater exposure for real Islam. Who knows?
So Minister Farakhan, my friend and my enemy, keep working. We are working too. I think this is the last one, right? Two, expose the human? Yes. Okay. Yes. Yes. Yes, that is a big problem. Why is it that the concept you expose, the human family first is not embraced by most of the governments or groups in this world? Racism and ethnicity is first and flourishes. That's true. That's true. Even it's true for Muslims. A Muslim, Muslim, Pakistani, whatever he is, he comes and he tells you all about the beauty of the brotherhood of Islam. All about how there's no racism in Islam, which all is true. All of that's true.
And at the same time, the way he is disrespecting you as a human person makes you believe that he himself is racist. They want to push not only Islam, but they want to push their ethnicity. Brother, you shouldn't wear this. Not all of them, but too many. Brother, you shouldn't wear these American clothes. You should dress Islamically. Brother, you should wear these oils. These are traditional oils. Have the oils. And some of us just don't want oils on us. I guess we're oily enough. So if we don't seem to be turned on by his far Eastern oils, those brothers, they will never be Muslims. Those brothers will never be real Muslims. They're just need to be Muslims. They are not falling into traditions of our prophet. Big deal, did our prophet come to bring us some oil in a little bottle with a smell to it from your kitchen?
Did he come to bring us that or did he come to bring us the Qur'an and the model human life we all, G-d want us to live? So we have to be concerned. Yes, countries, Muslim countries, as well as non-Muslim countries. They're pushing race and ethnicity and they seem to be kind of ignoring the human identity that all of us have in common. But thanks to G-d, the founding fathers of this great democracy we have, yes. Oh, he sounds patriotic. Yes, but old patriotism. This is a new time patriotism. I'm not the old patriotic citizen. I'm a new patriotic citizen in America. Yes. They put the language into the introduction to this constitution of these United States, saying that we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain rights that you can't take from them, inalienable rights.
That mean the government has no power to take this from those people. They're not given to the people by the government, and the government cannot take them away. G-d gave, their creator gave them these rights and the government cannot take them away. So here is the framers of this constitution given equality to the citizens of the United States. An equality reason or based upon the belief that the possibilities for freedom and excellence is not given by a nation to its citizens, but it's given by the creator to the citizens, and that we all have the same beginning in the world that G-d made for us, and we all should have the same fair beginning in the nation that man designed for us. That's wonderful. Now, in this country, we have seen the worst pictures of racism. In this country, in spite of that beautiful document, we have seen the worst picture of racism right here in America.
But that language was more powerful than all the other additions that were made to the Constitution, making us one fifth of a man or two fifths of a man, I can't recall right now, but making us a part of a man and not a whole man. All that stuff came in, but the purity, the real genuine truth that the founding fathers put in the introduction, it stayed there to overcome all of the falsehoods against our natural worth that G-d gave us. And today, what rules? The one fifth or the two fifths or equality? Equality rules in the laws, before the courts, equality rules. So if more nations would have this in their constitutions, if they would not base the worth of their citizens upon anything other than what G-d has created us or given us, they would have strong constitution and in time they would have more equality for their citizens and more equality for this human family that populates this whole globe than we have today.
So we have a lot of work to do.
I don't have much respect at all for most of the constitutions of these other countries. That's why a tyrant can come into power. A dictator can rule and stay in place and they play on the ignorance of the people, play on the immaturity in the emotions of the people and they can master ... Witch doctors have always been able to keep a following and stay in control, witch doctors. So that's all we have now in the world. Governments that are nothing but witch doctor, rule, witch doctor rule, playing on the ignorance of the people. But thanks to G-d, we live in a situation that's differently. I believe that G-d has chose this place to serve the betterment of the whole world, human family in the world. This place, America. It has been chosen. I do believe that. Where we see, where we've seen the life tested, the life has been tested.
The biggest lies have been told to us and the biggest truths have been told to us. And we have seen these lies and truths live together in competition with each other. And today we can say truth triumphing over the lie. Truth has the victory. The lie is retreating. I think that's a sign of G-d. That's a sign from G-d. And as the rest of the world looks on us, thank G-d for the powerful media we have now. We see them and they can see us. As the rest of the world looks on us, they're going to have to take notice. They're going to have to be attracted and have some curiosities. Why? How have this happened? I think many of the people that come over here, they're so jealous. They're so envious of the progress we have made for race relations that they either go to one extreme and pretend that everything is perfect or they go to the other extreme and tell us that it's all a deception.
Don't they buzz your ears sometimes, quiet, privately? All of this is deception. Don't trust them, brother. And I think it's because there's a lot of jealousy there. They're jealous. A lot of Muslims don't support me right now. You think I would have to be dependent on you all to pay my rent, to keep my lights on if these oil rich Muslims really were fair by me? If I was a Christian leader and if I had turned from what I used to believe as a Christian, and come from that ugly extreme to the beautiful life that I now embrace, I would be getting so much help from rich Christians. They'd be so proud of me as a Christian who'd made that great turn. They would know how difficult it was, that I resisted my own father, could have had great wealth, lying and fooling people, tricking the people.
I could have had great, great wealth. I could be rich. I could have come here in a Rolls Royce as long as this campus. Yes, I could have. Yes. So there would be Christians who would appreciate me so much from coming from where I was to where I am. That we wouldn't have no problem for a budget for Clara Muhammad School. The budget would be there. Everything would be there. Now here we've got oil rich Saudi Arabia. I'm not doing that to get anything from them. They know I don't beg. I'm a proud "Nigger."
Yes, I don't beg. I don't beg. Because really all the wealth in the world would nowhere equal the wealth that I have in my heart and my soul now that I've come to the real life. So I don't need any money to satisfy my soul. Yes. But they got that wealth. I know me in my mind and nature, if I saw any of them making that great turn and honoring the religion after they had disgraced it and discredited it, and I was rich like that, I would say, "What's your school need?" There's one rich white man, he just gave Russia $500 million. Russia, $500 million. Another rich man gave, I think, so many hundred billions. Billions. Yes. Yes. So here, here. No, no. We can't. No, we'll watch them. They're great. Sweet Imam. Your meat is so sweet and tasty. Allah, bless you.
You need nothing but Allah. You are so good. You're so good Brother Imam. (Arabic - Al hamdulillah) You are so good you don't even need our wealth. You don't need money. Brother Imam, you don't even need money! Thank you very much. Let me get out of here.
John Ramadan:
For more on the Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed, Muslim American Spokesman. Call or write, WDM Publications. Call 1-708- 862-7733. or write. Post Office Box 1944, Calumet City, Illinois 60409. For Muslim Journal see local distributor, and thanks for listening.


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